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TCI & CDI Electronic Ignition / Stators & Charging Systems

1. 20 40 60 80 100 120 CASE TEMPERATURE Figure 1 Power Derating 140 160 0 1 1 2 Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS Figure 3 DC Current Gain http onsemi com 3 BASE EMITTER VOLTAGE VOLTS 2 4 2 2 1 8 1 6 1 4 1 2 0 8 0 6 0 4 TIME Figure 2 Inductive Switching Measurements hfg 20 55 C 25 C 150 C 0 2 0 5 1 2 5 10 Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS Figure 4 Base Emitter Voltage TEST CIRCUITS CIRCUIT VALUES TEST WAVEFORMS MJE5740 MJE5742 Table 1 Test Conditions for Dynamic Performance RESISTIVE REVERSE BIAS SAFE OPERATING AREA AND INDUCTIVE SWITCHING SWITCHING JL DUTY CYCLE lt 10 tr tp lt 10 ns NOTE 0 02 ur 270 PW and Vcc Adjusted for Desired lc Rp Adjusted for Desired COIL DATA FERROXCUBE CORE 6656 FULL BOBBIN 716 TURNS 16 GAP FOR 200 uH 20 Lcoi 200 uH OUTPUT WAVEFORMS t t4 ADJUSTED TO OBTAIN Ic gt TN Lcoil 10 Voc Lcoil Vclamp Vcc 30 VCE pk 250 Vdc Ic pk 6 A Vcc 250 V D1 1N5820 OR EQUIV TEST EQUIPMENT SCOPE TEKTRONICS 92V 475 OR EQUIVALENT tr lt 10 ns DUTY CYCLE 196 AND Rc ADJUSTED FOR DESIRED Ig AND Ic
2. gt gt gt 6 iB zen os ene RI e E iet dix e 3 NE r HE I uo EEE TCI box with porthole cut away in bottom TCI box with Top cover removed Component List for Yamaha Vision Hitachi 12 06 TCI Ignitor box Manu Type Transistor FAST Switching Power Transistor Darlinton NPN Recomended Replacement Has been tested successfully 1 60 ON T 220 Spec Sheet is ound at NTE TE2317 heavy duty alternative erfect for this application Same size as original 2 50 arger Footprint Than Original file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI_Rebuild html 3 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild Resistors RAI RBI 500hmldw SSS RA2 RE2 30hmldw RE3 00Ohmldw RA4 100 000 Ohm 14w RAG REG 5600 Ohm 14w RA17 IRB17 22 Ohm 1 4 w 18 IRB18 2700 Ohm 1 4 w RunTime Resistors RA11 1 62 000 Ohm 1 4 w RA12 12 90 000 Ohm 1 4 w RA11 RB11 RA12 RB12 are run time components That means they are selected at the time of actual assembly to adjust some values on the board No 2 TCI are alike here and the resister values can t be predicted The values here are examples of what was found in 1 TCI module Electrolytic Capacitors CA2 m mfd 25 CA2 CB2 22 mfd 50v CA4 CB4 mfd 50 CAS 5 ho mfd 25v C
3. Plugs rarely go bad BUT that doesn t mean you can rule it out Because the VISION uses TCI instead of CDI read section on difference the plugs are more susceptible to fouling You can foul a plug bad enough IT WILL NOT WORK I fouled one this bad while experimenting for this guide A good spark at the wire end screw or nail inserted doesn t show you what the plug is really doing Pull out the plugs clean and check for good spark with the plugs out and the case grounded Look for a nice sharp blue colored spark that you can noticeably file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 9 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ hear Try NOT to run your bike without the plug wires attached to something to spark to Otherwise you may encourage a spark out the side of the coil where insulation may be old and poor top 4 0 gt SIDE STAND RELAY top4 SYMPTOMS The side stand relay must be powered or the ignition unit is killed So if the Side Stand relay or circuit is faulty it will cause the engine to cutout altogether maybe intermittently The key here is ALTOGETHER Another words BOTH cylinders together If the engine runs on ONE cylinder ever then THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM A faulty side stand relay circuit kills the WHOLE ignition The tach WILL GO TO ZERO Now if the engine is running intermittently so rough you can t tell if its one or both cylinders then this is worth checking top4
4. Notes http onsemi com 7 MJE5740 MJE5742 ON Semiconductor and are registered trademarks of Semiconductor Components Industries LLC SCILLC SCILLC reserves the right to make changes without further notice to any products herein SCILLC makes no warranty representation or guarantee regarding the suitability of its products for any particular purpose nor does SCILLC assume any liability arising out of the application or use of any product or circuit and specifically disclaims any and all liability including without limitation special consequential or incidental damages Typical parameters which may be provided in SCILLC data sheets and or specifications can and do vary in different applications and actual performance may vary over time All operating parameters including Typicals must be validated for each customer application by customer s technical experts SCILLC does not convey any license under its patent rights nor the rights of others SCILLC products are not designed intended or authorized for use as components in systems intended for surgical implant into the body or other applications intended to support or sustain life or for any other application in which the failure of the SCILLC product could create a situation where personal injury or death may occur Should Buyer purchase or use SCILLC products for any such unintended or unauthorized application Buyer shall indemnify and hold SCILLC and its officers emp
5. The low to high pulse is the trigger The peak voltage produced by most sensors is around 5volts In the VISION the 2 sensor pickups are under the left crankcase cover at the crankshaft flywheel end The magnet is built into the outside surface of the Vision flywheel top7 3 HOW COIL SPARK WORKS EXACTLY The spark plug COIL is exactly that 2 LONG lengths of thin wire wound side by side tightly around a cylinder spool a coil of wire The first PRIMARY WINDING length of wire is proportionally shorter than the SECONDARY WINDING As example the coil may have 100 000 wraps of wire around it but the second winding is 200 times longer wrapped 200 1 whatever Since the wires are so thin and close the second wire picks up the same electrical voltage charge flowing through the first If the wires were the same length connecting 12volts to the primary wire other end to 12 ground would charge the second wire up to 12v also But in a spark coil the secondary wire charges up to a voltage proportionally higher than the first since the secondary wire is so much longer literally more wire to fill with electricity Remember the PRIMARY and SECONDARY wires are NOT connected But they are just so close to each other that they pick up proportional charges In layman s terms when one end of the primary wire is cutoff the charge still left in the primary wire flows back to the battery But the longer secondary wire
6. 1 6 20 55 C 25 C 0 6 150 0 2 0 5 1 2 Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS 5 10 Figure 5 Inductive Switching Measurements http onsemi com 4 MJE5740 742 SAFE OPERATING AREA INFORMATION FORWARD BIAS There are two limitations on the power handling ability of a transistor average junction temperature and second breakdown Safe operating area curves indicate IC VCE limits of the transistor that must be observed for reliable operation i e the transistor must not be subjected to greater dissipation than the curves indicate The data of Figure 6 is based on TC 25 C is variable depending on power level Second breakdown pulse limits are valid for duty cycles to 10 but must be derated when gt 25 C Second breakdown limitations do not derate the same as thermal limitations Allowable current at the voltages shown on Figure 6 may be found at any case temperature by using the appropriate curve on Figure 1 REVERSE BIAS For inductive loads high voltage and high current must be sustained simultaneously during turn off in most cases with the base to emitter junction reverse biased Under these conditions the collector voltage must be held to a safe level at or below a specific value of collector current This can be accomplished by several means such as active clamping RC snubb
7. AM Ignition FAQ top7 9 CHECKING THE TCI MODULE After reading all this you ll be angry now when I tell you there s NO definitive test to check the TCI You can prove the TCI is bad but not that it is good I recommend this order 1 The TCI power on test section 12 will show you right away if the TCI system is NOT working Go There Now gt TCI Power On Tests 2 Check the Sensors section 8 This is most likely if you have one cylinder missing not both Next Section 3 Check TCI voltages section 9 Go There Now TCI Connector Checks 4 Disassemble TCI for inspection section 10 Go There Now gt TCI Inspection 5 Rebuild the TCI module Go There Now TCI Rebuild top 8 gt PICKUP SENSORS file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 21 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Click for big ae big Pickup Magnet on Flywheel Outside 2 Ignition Pickups on right of stator top8 1 TACH symptoms Remember the TACH is DRIVEN BY the TCI via the REAR pickup sensor If TACH is good rear sensor is good top8 2 BAD SENSOR SYMPTOMS If only ONE cylinder is misfiring then suspect all these the PICKUP COIL TCI Check all 3 It would seem unlikely for BOTH one for each cylinder pickups to go bad together at the same time That would result in both cylinders misfiring BUT pickup sensor crosstalk or shorting is possible That WOULD give those
8. HP out of an engine by improving the timing curves Low vs High resistance coils ignition uses higher resistance coils compared to CDI is ystems that can use lower resistance coils So Do Not Use a racing or gi resistance type coil in an induction ignition or TCI system unless it is specifically designed for that The low resistance coil will flow more current thru the TCI and produce the legendary Hot Toaster effect Though it will work for awhile you will eventually burn the TCI Module out Ignition shutdown viously it seems harsh on the components to be powering the ignition system when when the engine is NOT running but the key is on So both types of ignition designs employ some auto shutdown of the ignition modules This is usually tied to the pickup sensors If no RPM is Dserved then the ignition is shut off as well as is the high pressure fuel pumps for the fuel injection system I mention this because in older llkiuction TCI designs when the ignition module shuts off it collapses the coil You would occasionally get a single backfire a second or two er trying to start a engine that didn t run The Big Myth Your engine needs a tune up ou ve understood any of this then the question that should come to mind is What do they adjust when you take your car in for a tune up e obvious answer NOT MUCH If you own an older electonic ignition 80 late 90 s a shop can Replace the spark Plugs Check the plug
9. Ignition CDI html 13 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview tested on a 90cc Kawasaki motorcycle Automotive CDI was pioneered mainly by Bosch in Europe In 1979 they introduced the Bosch Motronic Today we see a variety of names to include Ford s TFI Thick Film Integrated GM s HEI High Energy Ignition DIS istributorless Ignition System ECU electronic control unit and many others EDI ignition is most widely used today on automotive and marine engines CDI module has capacitor storage of its own and sends a short voltage about 250 volts pulse through the coil The coil now acts more like a transformer instead of a storage inductor and multiplies this voltage even higher Modern CDI coils step up the voltage about 100 1 So a typical 250v CDI module output is stepped up to over 000v output from the coil The CDI output voltage of course can be higher So you ll see CDI systems claiming coil output capability over 4 000 60 000 volts As you will see this is not exactly what happens at the plug but for math purposes it works out The huge advantage of CDI is the higher coil output and hotter spark The spark duration is much shorter about 10 12 microseconds and accurate This is better at Meh RPM but can be a problem for both starting and or lean mixture high compression situations CDI systems can and do use low sistance coils Again the differences Ketter
10. See Figure 6 Clamped Inductive SOA with Base Reverse Biased RBSOA See Figure 7 Characteristic Symbol Min Typ Max Unit ON CHARACTERISTICS 3 DC Current Gain Ic 0 5 VCE 5 Vdc Ic 4 Adc VCE 5 Vdc Collector Emitter Saturation Voltage Ic 4 Adc Ig 0 2 Adc 8 Adc Ig 0 4 Adc Ic 4 Adc 0 2 Adc 100 C Base Emitter Saturation Voltage Ic 4 Adc 0 2 Adc Ic 8 Adc 0 4 Adc Ic 4 Adc 0 2 Adc 100 C SWITCHING CHARACTERISTICS Typical Resistive Load Table 1 Delay Time Rise Ti Vcc 250 Vdc 1 6 A ise Time 1 1 1 2 0 25 tp 25 Storage Time Duty Cycle lt 1 Fall Time Inductive Load Clamped Table 1 Voltage Storage Time IC pk 6 A VCE pk 250 Vdc Crossover Time 1 1 0 06 A VBE off 5 Vdc 2 Pulse Test Pulse Width 300 us Duty Cycle 2 continued 3 Pulse Test Pulse Width 300 us Duty Cycle 2 4 The internal Collector to Emitter diode can eliminate the need for an external diode to clamp inductive loads Tests have shown that the Forward Recovery Voltage Vf of this diode is comparable to that of typical fast recovery rectifiers http onsemi com 2 POWER DERATING FACTOR hFE DC CURRENT GAIN 100 80 60 40 20 2000 1000 100 MJE5740 MJE5742 TYPICAL CHARACTERISTICS SECOND BREAKDOWN DERATING 4 THERMAL DERATING
11. as told to me by roadrunner but I HAVE NEVER TRIED But it sounds like it should work He writes Just a quick backyead test you can use one of them soldering guns you know the hi current pistal type It will trick the magnetic pickups to send pulses Becouse the gun creates a dense magnetic feald around the tip Carfull not to burn something doing this The pickups will sense these magnetic fealds and send firing pulses at 60 hz to the module It makes it a lot easer to troubleshoot without kicking the starter each time Of course this has limited use even if it does work since you would need spare pickups to try this But just passing the info on Here s what we think we know so far The Vision TCI ignitor was supplied by Hitachi as part TID 12 06 The semiconductor fast switching transistor inside marked ETD41 was made by Fuji Electronics Fuji also produces ignitors and maybe even builds them for Hitachi too They also produce a line of after market ignitors some advertised under other brand names for homebuilt aircraft The ETD41 s are diode protected Darlington NPN transistors You want to replace these with heavier duty substitutes We can make a good guess at what that would be based on the TCI and coil voltages currents This should probably be something that can handles 10 amps at the collector and double that for peak The best replacement so far would seem to be the MJE5742 listed above It was available from www digi ke
12. bad corroded connections the stator wiring and connections can begin to melt over time You will see melted plugs and scorched stator bodies when this happens Lost phases will decrease AC and DC output And or shorted wires can fry the stator and regulator too e Rectifier failure o The rectifier uses 6 diodes arranged to chop the AC output from the stator to DC current The DC is conditioned a little bit more with capacitors etc since rectified AC is still a little choppy and not good for newer LCD microchip driven displays and other solid state devices Needless to say if the diodes burn out you have problems Depending which diodes go the DC voltage output can be lower to nonexistent zero e Regulator failure o Less likely but possible is that regulator circuitry fails and the output will be too little or too much Too little and the battery eventually dies Too much and the battery will overheat bubble over and self destruct e Heat Disappation o There is a VARIETY of discussion about the stator and or rectifier overheating and failing The stator is cooled by the oil under the crankcase If the oil is allowed to get low then the stator can potentially overheat and fail o The rectifier does not charge the battery all the time If the battery is full up then the rectifier will SHUNT the electric pulse from the stator back to ground In laymans terms SHUNT basically means the white wires are grounded The stato
13. both voltage and load CAUTION You must do this right or risk frying the multimeter Most multimeters cannot measure amps normally You must reposition the RED wire to another socket and also switch the multimeter into AMP mode Most good multimeters can measure up to 10amps which is good for automotive work The small cheap multimeters CANNOT measure amps topA3 4 Voltage Drop This is hard to explain and hard to grasp Here goes A wire normally has little resistance and so doesn t use up any voltage from the circuit If a wire does have resistance it DOES use up some voltage and this normally translates to heat Your toaster is the perfect example of this Or in a badly corroded connection like in boats voltage leaks back to ground externally like through the frame file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 38 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ If you feel heat warmth in any wire or connector something is not right This is hard to feel though on a hot bike on a hot day Your concern here is that the wiring in a circuit has gained some resistance of it own and is using up volts that would normally go to the TCI or Coils or whatever You check the end of a circuit with a meter and see 12 volts at the end The whole circuit path is using and conducting 12 volts BUT the question is what is the voltage at any given point along the circuit path If the wire going to the TCI
14. by the engine for charg ing and two separate circuit connections between said electrical devices and the bat tery having provisions associated with the first for taking high wattage current from the battery to crank the motor through said high leverage gearing and with the second circuit for delivering low wattage current by using said second set o ing Index http tjpatlaw com cff195 html Automobile Lighting and Battery Charging System Previous Page In a system of the character described the combination with an internal combus tion engine of a lighting system therefor including electric lamps adapted for rela tively low voltage current a storage bat tery connected with said lighting system electrical connections connected with said battery a high leverage gearing connected with said engine a lower leverage gearing connected with said engine and means in cluding electrical power transmitting de vices connected with said gearing and said electrical battery connections for MEM relatively high wattage current from sai battery into mechanical power applied to said engine through the high ratio gearing to start the engine and for translating pe derived from the engine through the ower ratio gearing to charge said storage battery with current of lower wattage and of substantially the same voltage as that of the lighting system CHARLES F KETTERING Next Page Page 1 of 1 1 3
15. fairchildsemi com MSD Ignition Systems http www msdignition com Another Ignition Supplier http www mwignitions com Accell Ignition Systems http www mrgasket com accel htm Misc Ignition Stuff http www newcovenant com features motors ignition htm http w3 one net ryanr triplesite tech html http dmoz org Recreation Motorcycles Maintenance_and_Tech_Tips top B1 gt Author Dave Leather Draper A Face To a Name I ve added this to dispel any suggestion or myth that I am an expert on Electronics Motorcycles TCI Ignition systems meaning of life etc an attack pilot airline pilot by trade and have a degree in Computer Science and Mathematics Over the years I have worked on a variety of motors My father is a radio engineer so I have just enough electrical knowledge to be dangerous and enough mechanical skill to do some real damage Occasionally it all comes together and something actually gets fixed Around the house I am known as Mister Fix It but that s just because my kids are still young enough to still believe everything I say my wife cause I m the only one who knows how to program the VCR There are much smarter folks out there and that s the beauty of the net Knowledge is power and I m just trying to help spread it around file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 41 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top B2 gt CREDITS and CONTRIBUTORS absolu
16. installed a voltmeter a clock and an oil pressure gauge across the dashboard inside my 83 s fairing I glued a hardboard backing to the thin plastic dash for more support The gauges I chose were the Cockpit series from VDO They match the Vision s instruments except that they have blaze orange rather than yellow needles They have held up perfectly for many years It s a very pretty setup The wiring for a voltmeter couldn t be simpler you just need a hot wire and a ground One thing I have found is that the voltage tends to vary in mysterious ways even when the stator and regulator are new Revving the engine produces a drop in voltage over certain rpm ranges even though there is sufficient voltage at idle I also have an indicator LED on my TDM 850 that glows green yellow or red depending on the voltage This too shows strange voltage drops during parts of the rpm range Following the excellent diagnostics given in the electrexusa com site I systematically brought the resistances and voltage drops in the Vision charging circuit within specs This helped but did not completely remove the strange voltage dips with engine rpm I have always seen with the voltmeter The voltmeter is a great help when the stator is failing since it gives the warning you need to avoid getting stranded The rest of the time it should not be too closely examined Regular voltage check question by QBS Thank you for an excellent gauge piece Could one get
17. into these plug pin connections below both should read 2 75 OHM GRAY wire pin Rear Cylinder Coil ORANGE wire pin Front Cylinder Coil To Check the SECONDARY WINDINGS of the coil pull the spark plug wire off each spark plug Put the Red lead on each spark wire end Each should be about 7 90hm top13 4 SWAPPING COILS If you want to test the BAD COIL theory then swap the coil trigger wires Check to see if you get a good spark out of the coil you think is bad using the TCI pulse wire you know is good This is like the pickup swap Don t leave the spark wires connected or you will misfire the bike BADLY On TCI 6 prong plug swap GRAY and ORANGE wires Disconnect BOTH spark plug wires Put a screw into plug wire end and position near ground file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 34 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Crank engine and look for spark out of bad coil If you get a good spark then suspect bad PICKUP or TCI Swap the pickups to confirm the TCI is bad top13 5 PLUG WIRE CHECK If coil seems to test bad could it be bad a BAD PLUG WIRE A plug wire that has an internal break will still work It can spark internally across the break This could make the spark plug end spark weaker or erratic You would have seen this in the Secondary ohm check though Also the plug wire itself can have worn insulation Then the spark literally leaks out the side into the e
18. looking for voltage dropouts You should not see more that 1 4 volts in these checks More means you have a wire or connector that is literally diverting power or making a poor ground gt gt Set voltmeter to low scale 1 3 volts gt gt Put RED test lead on 12 battery post Put black test lead on these TCI pins with wires connected RED WHITE striped ORANGE GRAY wires top9 3 CHECKING THE TCI WHILE RUNNING Plug both 4 prong and 6 prong plug into the TCI module Use a safety pin to pierce into the correct wire and check same things above while the engine is running Maybe there is a bad connection somewhere vibrating loose when the bike runs top 10 gt DISASSEMBLING TCI MODULE file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 28 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ Bes e ear t a T sl J E yl g F z ad d a AUS amp lt EV cos PE vu 8 Lnd M Daga 017 986 gt 7h RA TT Lees 4 F cme D IT top10 1 WHY LOOK INSIDE TCI If your convinced the TCI is the problem then this is your last hope Open the TCI and look for an obvious mechanical problem like moisture bad solder joint bad component top10 2 GETTING INSIDE THE Black Box LUCKILY you CAN look inside the VISION TCI module BUT BE CAREFUL Take the cover off an
19. prone to component BReakdown Anyone who has owned an older British sports cars will understand the term the dark Lord of Lucas Lucas Electronics were agtorious for their failure 66114 state components are particularly sensitive to heat thermal stress vibration moisture and power surges basically everything an engine iggabout So great strides have been made to beef up and improve CDI reliability These include things like Improved cooling and heat sinks Epoxy resin or Epoxy rubber encasing components so they can t get wet Using separate ignition modules for each plug so a single failure won t kill the whole engine This concept was first exploited in outboards where each plug has a separate power pack Power pack failures were a big problem in the outboard industry for awhile and not funny when you are 60 miles from land in a small sport fisherman with 1 engine Heavier duty components that can withstand the heat vibration and duty cycles What s Better Induction or CDI early CDI is being used for most all modern auto motorcycle marine applications It is also the choice for most high rpm race engines is is simply due to the ability to fine tune all aspects of the combustion process electronically Where simplicity and reliability is a factor B t rather reliability The longer spark duration of induction systems gives a better chance that combustion WILL take place Anyone who has er flown at night ove
20. reg rect w 2 3in of wire to wire correctly I E cut from main harness as nessary sometimes the salvage guys don t like this Your bike will now charge 14 14 5v also ck battery pos amp ground cables these are prone to fail Removal tips by QBS Regarding removal of the three Phillips Head screws and for that matter all Phillips Head screws in general that attach the stator coil to the left engine cover If you don t have an impact screw driver with a properly sized bit don t touch them until you do Specific to the V after the left engine cover is off lay it on its side outside down on a wooden surface Then use the impact driver and hammer to loosen the three screws Reattchment with the impact driver is the reverse being carefull to not over tighten the the screws First tighten the screws as tight as you can by hand Then give them one or two Max impact driver blows who it might be that may have to remove them in the future Another tip If you haven t got an impact driver or the screw heads are too trashed to be of any use but you do have a little room to work with around the screw head area Use the smallest Vise Grips you can get and grab the screw head very firmly and attempt to turn the screw head in a counter clockwise direction I ve used this technique many times over the years and never fail to get a small thrill of satisfaction everytime I overcome the challange of a screw head that at one time would have caused me hours of fru
21. should have continuity with the others 0 32 ohms by the book No stator wire should have continuity with ground short or bad insulation Engine running each set of stator wires 1 2 2 3 1 3 should produce 50v AC Test all 6 diodes to check they block current flow in the correct direction e 5 Keep your oil level high The stator is partially cooled by oil in the flywheel sump file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 8 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ e 6 To replace the stator you must remove the left crankcase cover This is NOT a big job BUT you must reinstalled the cover and wiring correctly OR engine oil will leak out of the crankcase bottom and you ll have to do the whole job over One word Yamabond 4 e 7 Oh Yeah Make sure you have a good battery A bad old dead battery will load down the charging circuit till it overheats and dies You know when you put a battery charger on a dead battery and it PEGS the amp meter Well that s what a bad battery is doing to your bike Cautions amp Warnings file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 9 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ Stator Flywheel with 2 magnets inside file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 10 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ WHAT A GOOD CHARGING SYSTEM LOOKS LIKE Engine Off On NOT running Engin
22. symptoms top8 3 CHECKING PICKUP ohm RESISTANCE The VISION has 2 sensor pickups mounted on a single plate assembly Each sensor pickup is a small coil You can check for continuity no break in the internal coil wire and also the correct resistance you d expect of a coil that is not shorted out or corroded file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 22 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Unplug the 4 prong plug from the TCI At the plug the wires ends are BLACK GROUND connected internally in TCI to the Black ground wire in 6 prong plug This is the ground side of sensors Both sensor grounds are tied together one wire WHITE Rear cyl Pickup RED Front Cyl Pickup Set Ohm Meter to Rx10 scale Put Black lead clip on the BLACK wire pin socket of the plug use a thin wire or safety needle to get in there Put the RED test lead on the RED wire socket Then the WHITE wire socket AGAIN the RED BLACK wires are Front cyl sensor the WHITE BLACK wires are the Rear cly sensor Sensor Pickup should read 110 ohms 99 121 ohms is acceptable in both cases top8 31 BAD NEWS ABOUT PICKUP ohm TEST The continuity OHM test ONLY checks the basic properties of the pickup coil It doesn t really tell you FOR SURE if its working I had an outboard with single pickup that tested perfect years ago Spent lots of money to replace the CDI and single coil because the engine would die after getting hot B
23. the plastic case side so they re not obvious In the center you will see the Timing chip attached in a daughterboard configuration Everything else is diodes the small end banded stuff and resistors center banded Look for obvious signs of heat damage discolored components with blistered or crinkled skin If you re REALLY lucky it could be a bad solder joint Look for solder points that aren t pretty look dull cold solder joint or look disfigured by heat Chance are slim but you never know top 10 4 MOISTURE The TCI is not a sealed unit If you see any moisture then THIS COULD BE IT I had a TCI with this problem once Moisture really screws up resistances on an IC board The case has 2 drain holes but no good way for moisture to evaporate out out of the case This is why most CDIs are encased Epoxy Rubber Spray the whole thing liberally with WD 40 If you didn t know Trivia Pursuit Fans WD stands for Water Displacement and WD 40 was designed for the military in part to dry out wet electronics Afterwards blow dry out with spray air duster top 11 gt WASTED SPARK file El WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 30 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ 5 Ignition Exhaust Have you heard wasted spark talked about It is the spark you get during the exhaust stroke It is wasted but who cares Here s the story top11 1 Distributorless
24. to consolidate info concerning the charging system for the Yamaha Vision motorcycle Much of this applies to any motorcycle charging system Most of this has come from the Vision Forum its riders ELECTREX and other sources My thanks to EVERYONE This is linked from the Vision Ignition FAQ amp my Vision Home Page I will update this for fellow Vision Owners Vision Riders Group Dave Leather Draper JET_AV8R CSLCOM Fig 1 Stator file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 1 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ Fig 3 Regulator Rectifier Yamaha Vision Charging System Reader s Digest Version OVERVIEW file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 2 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ The Yamaha Vision as most motorcycles has an internal inside the crankcase permanent magnet rotor 3 phase coil stator and an external Regulator Rectifier RR box That is the whole system The Vision generator is rated at 20 amps and should produce 14 5 0 5 volts unloaded and about 14v loaded when RPM at 3000 That s what the book says Practically speaking your bike should produce a solid 14v at idle A stationary Stator Fig 1 is mounted to the crankcase cover and sits inside the flywheel Rotor Fig 1 The Rotor has 2 magnets that engine running rotate around the Stator These magnet produce a North Sout
25. to read If you use an analog needle meter remember you need to calibrate the display before getting an accurate ohm test Connect both leads with metal clips only Don t get your hands on them or it will throw off the reading Adjust the meter so with leads connected the needle shows zero Full Scale last bar on the scale This IS NOT pegged to side of case topA3 2 Volts vs AMPS file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 37 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ Remember the Voltage is the strength of electricity in the wire and AMPS is the Volume passing thru it The typical analogy is a garden hose The voltage is the pressure of water coming out your faucet usually 55psi The AMPS is the volume of water Obviously 55psi coming out of your garden hose is LESS powerfull than 55psi coming out of a firemans hose So AMPS is really the true measure of what the electricity can do AND obviously the size of the hose and wire limits the volume amps you can get Notice the wire driving your starter is thicker than the wire driving your tail lights Its the same voltage but you need to conduct more volume amps to the starter motor ronically the bigger wire has a smaller size WHAT Its probably explained somewhere on the net but bigger wire has a smaller gauge So a bigger 10 gauge wire will conduct more amps than a 14 gauge wire without melting For once smaller is better here topA3 25 T
26. uses 1 volt then the TCI in the middle is using 11 volts It adds up to 12 but the TCI is NOT getting what it needs Not good To check for voltage drops you need to hook the meter up backwards from what you d normally do You are checking points along the wire that are not a full 12 volts You do this by comparing it to a good 12 volts SO hook up the RED lead to 12 battery terminal You know THAT is a GOOD 12 volts as a reference point right Now use the black lead to check points along the circuit path If a test point is a good 12 volts you won t see anything You can t conduct 12 volts into 12 volts But lets say a point on the wire is 11 volts because a previous connector is corroded and soaking up 1 volt You now will conduct 1 volt from the battery into the wire there is a 1 volt potential difference You will see 1 volt on the meter Generally you should see less than a 2 voltage drop in a good connection 2 02x12 1 Avolt You should not see voltage drops more than about 1 4 volt topA3 5 Near Ground In solid state circuits especially you do not always have pure ground connections The circuit is near ground You cannot see near ground on the Volt scale or Continuity setting It is NOT a connection that can support that kind of electrical load Use the Ohm x1 setting instead The Needle will show near full scale when the probes are touched use the adjust knob if neccesary Now check the circuit The needle
27. will again show full scale with a good near ground connection This happens when a circuit has some small resistance in it solid state transistor grounds are good examples The circuit sees ground You will too if you use the right scale Set the meter to Ohm scale like Rx1 Put the test leads together and zero the meter full scale needle Now put one lead on good ground frame 12 battery post Put other lead on test point Look for needle swing file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 39 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top A4 gt Battery Theory and Care This page courtesy of Aaron Berg XJ Electrical site Open this Page NOW top A5 gt Removing TCI Wires From The Plug To Be Added top A6 gt ELECTRICAL THEORY amp FORMULAS This page courtesy of Aaron Berg XJ Electrical site Open this Page NOW top A7 gt Rebuilding A Vision TCI Module Open this seperate Page REBUILD VISION TCI Related Links eLeCutex charging systems for motorcycles David Denowh Virago TCI site http members aol com ddenowh TCl index html Brian Fosh TZ Repair site in UK http tzrewinds co uk file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 40 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ Allied Semiconductors http www alliedsemiconductors com NTE Semiconductors http www nteinc com Fairchild Semiconductors http www
28. wound Spiral wound is becoming the Spark Plugs file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 17 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview is is a bar conversation if ever there was one right up there with synthetic vs normal oil But I believe most standard plugs these days are than adequate NGK Bosche Champion are all good Platinum plugs the way to go because they simply last longer good plug should last about a years worth of normal use 20 30 000 miles If using the engine in more extreme load rpm ranges you should consider plug with a different heat rating As an example an engine operated in constant high rpm power load situations might benefit from a colder stock plug rating Since the engine is running hotter a cold plug would run cooler thereby preventing pre ignition helping the plug jad engine last longer Ignition Discussion Links tp www 442 com oldsfagq ofign htm om dave andrews motorcycle repair page tp members aol com DV Andrews timing htm iin motorcycle garage at tp www dansmc com IGNITIONTIMING html from simple digital systems fm 4 tp www sdsefi com techcomb htm tronic spark ignition hitp www barbwireweb com EELC jep runintro12 htm Some Ignition Links and searches ARCHES m ry to use search word that would only be used in discussion of ignition systems Examples DI ignitions capacitive di
29. you can rent these at several tool supply rental houses As indicated earlier in this forum you have to whack the bolt on the puller quite hard in addition to using the impact wrench I thought for a while I wasn t going to get it off but eventually it popped off when I hit it Put a padded box under the flywheel while you are doing this to catch the flywheel and the starter clutch rollers and springs that are likely come out when the flywheel finally comes off You ll probably also need a impact socket to do this I split my regular socket on the first try Took stator flywheel off on december of last year because I needed to change the roller pins and get the base where those pins go to welded back as it was cracked This is how I did o Remove left cover o Put the appropriate size socket wrench on the flyhweel nut a k a big nut even though right now I do not remember if it was a nut or a bolt Who cares Get a bolt like 2 something inches long a k a small bolt and then turn the flywheel using the wrench on the big nut until you can jam the bolt between the bike frame and those holes that were drilled on the outside of the flywheel for balancing The idea is to use the small bolt to stop the flywheel from turning while you play with the big nut o Holding the small bolt so it will not pop out when there is no compression load on it loose the big nut o Using an adequate puller take the flywheel off What I used was a a 3 bolt
30. 1 2005 file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition originalcdidiagram gif d Th ristortandin id NS pO t1 TRI TR2 1 50 1 100 OESR G Jespersen z Max 18 Re Toy T iu i lt i 4 L t 3 eb ved h 0 0 B Det im markede vardier for Bs Dis Kun fun for voghe med til stel 24 WG ree 28 9 BY 425 E R1 EX PFE a doe A Suk fay E 3 0mdr sitar tendu C2 25 350 Ff cg 470a BW Ca iT FI TOOV 2 25 RU Wan BUE uF tug Bosch RS 22Kn Bak FYIR UES bag dol Mar ee 320 Hz UE se 25 ne NA Ag rica bia P TC mndaland file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition originalcdidiagram gif8 6 2005 7 13 32 AM SKY 17 Ope HLY L 4 KE 29 m Alm tanding heo eK YYY i 4 _ file EV WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition OriginalCDIBike jpg file EV WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition OriginalCDIBike jpg8 6 2005 7 13 32 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ YAMAHA Motorcycle Charging systems Charging Stators FAQ Yamaha VISION xz550 RJ RK Best Viewed At 600x800 LE UPDATED 10 1 2002 Left Side View With Crankcase Cover Removed Download this page as PDF file TaN ou Ree This page attempts
31. 2 HOW IT WORKS The VISION has a safety lock to prevent you from running the engine with the side stand down and the bike NOT in neutral In the VISION the ignition is Killed tach goes to zero when the BLACK WHITE wire coming from the TCI module 6 prong plug is connected to the frame GROUND 12volts This is done by the Side Stand Relay Normally when the side stand is up the relay is energized with 12 power and held OPEN to disconnect the TCI module B W wire from ground When the side stand is down the relay loses power and closes connecting the B W wire to ground So if the relay is not powered bad connections or is shorting out it can intermittently kill the ignition and tach top4 3 DISCONNECTING CHECKING SIDE STAND RELAY Find the BLACK WHITE striped wire coming out of the 6 prong plug in the side of the TCI ignitor module case Either remove the wire pin socket from the plug harder to do or just cut the wire and tape the ends With the BLACK WHITE striped the wire cut the ignition can t be connected to ground and will work fine If this is the problem Fix replace the relay or connections to the relay If you leave the BLACK WHITE wire disconnected just remember your bike will run with the side stand down Use your judgment as this IS a safety device The side stand relay is under the right engine cover behind the plastic cover which the small square TCI ignition module is mounted to That
32. 20 10 1000 1600 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 RPM In the perfect ignition process we would achieve efficient combustion progression at exactly the right time to produce the optimum pressure gradients in the cylinder in complete harmony with the piston movement relative to the piston rod to crankshaft rotation Say W H A T The combustion process does not happen instantaneously simultaneously in the cylinder but rather as preferred in a progressive pattern from the spark The spark ignites gases near the electrode which then continues to burn propagates outward away from the spark plug usually a spherical pattern You ll often hear this combustion progression across the cylinder referred to as the flame front The design of piston and cylinder heads combined with spark plug placement is largely to get the best flame front possible The time it takes the fuel air mixture charge to combust changes according to many variables to include fuel air mixture ratio density temperature octane how well the cylinder has filled given volumetric efficiency the charge turbulence inside the cylinder compression ratio the physical shape of the combustion chamber and piston head spark plug placement rear end ratio and car weight both translate to engine load etc The important point here is The combustion process does take a period of time and the length of that time changes so when you need to start it changes An Ex
33. 6 2005 7 13 20 AM file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0080 jpg file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0080 jpg8 6 2005 7 13 21 AM 2 8 6 2005 7 13 22 jpg 1 of 2 file E _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0120 jpg file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0120 TCIWiring TCI Modules Mounted Looking From Rear Of Bike Wire Colors Plug Nniches This Side P di Black pin 4 prong connected internally to Black pin 6 prong file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision PlugDiag htm18 6 2005 7 13 24 AM TCICase file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision TCICutopen htm18 6 2005 7 13 27 AM Electronic Ignition Overview Electronic Ignition Capacitive Discharge Ignition CDI Transistor Controlled Ignition TCI This guide explains the basic principals and theory behind electronic ignition This is linked from the Yamaha Vision Motorcycle Ignition FAQ amp my Vision Home Page If you have inputs to this page PLEASE email Dave Leather Draper JetAv8r JetAV8r com Last Update June 20005 Download This Guide As PDF Zipped File Intro This guide was started for a motorcycle group seeking to solve common ignition problems But over time this has expanded into this stand alone page because of the interest for a general explanation of gas 4 stroke not diesel or 2 stroke engine ignition pri
34. A6 CB6 n m d 35 tantalum CA7 CB7 mfd 35 tantalum CA8 CB8 22 mfd 50v Mylar Capacitors CA3 CA3 472k 50g file El WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI Rebuild html 4 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild 1 Dos o o DAI DA2 1N1001 DA2 DB2 Small Signal Glass DAG DB6 Small Signal Glass ZDAI ZDBI Zener 8 2volts Rebuilding a TCI or Ignitor Box My thanks to Dick Stelter David Denowh Uwe Werner Brian Fosh of TzRewinds Dennis Meyers and many others for what follows There is a good chance you can repair the TCI module A little soldering skill may be all it takes We know some have repaired their own ignitor boxes General speaking it is most likely the transistors which have failed on the circuit board Also some have reported loose solder connections that have been corrected with some cleaning and resoldering DO NOT rule out simple moisture The Vision TCI is NOT encased in resin or rubber like most ignition modules are So if there is moisture on the board it would not work well WD 40 and let it sit in the sun would be good advice here The Vision TCI circuit board is a doublesided plated thru design This means the components are mounted on one side but soldered both top and bottom and thru the board This is a strong rugged design and makes weak solder joints less likely The Virago TCI which is very similar uses a single sided design where the components are mounte
35. Av8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 13 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ dielectric grease on the outside to water proof connectors e QBS Using plain simple common wheel bearing grease put a light coating of grease in the internal areas of the stator coil connector An even better permanent fix would be to clip off the male and female components of the connector and hard wire solder the connections The wires are white in color on both sides of the connection so it s not critical which ones are soldered together as long as a bike wiring harness wire is connected to a stator wire If for some reason this connection needs to be broken in the future simply cut the soldered wires and then resolder them upon reassembly Electrical system operation The V alternator puts out 100 of its capacity ability all the time given the RPM it is operating at What the bike load doesn t use is shunted to ground by the regulator The connector carries whatever amps the alternator is putting out all the time regardless of bike load Low Rpm low amp output low amps passing through connector electrical needs deficiency made up by battery High RPM max amp output max amps passing through connector amperage left over after bike load is serviced is shunted to ground Note that is both cases all amps pass through the connector before any electrical distribution or alteration is done The alternator always puts out the most it can no matter what is
36. C grind the peaned threads level with the surface of the rotor and unscrew them as usual Before final assembly of the left engine cover do a continuity check of the stator coil as described in the Haynes manual If continuety is found replace the stator coil When reassembling the left engine cover inspect the stator coil connector for corrosion related internal heating damage If found seriously consider clipping off the connector and hard wiring soldering the connection If the connector is still servicable at the very least you should lightly grease the inside of the connector If you don t stator coil replacement certainly lies in your future If the above SC attachment and stator coil connector procedures are performed the left engine cover should not require removal for many years if ever again After you reattach your SC you ll be amazed at how quite the engine is at idle Your information regarding V engine life is correct A well maintained V should go at least 100K with no major internal problems Mine is working on 73K Flywheel removal by pat sullivan I recently removed my flywheel to inspect the starter clutch I used an impact wrench and with it I did not have to hold the flywheel at all I checked with the local Yamaha shop in Santa Clara CA and they indicated that they use pullers for Automotive Harmonic Balancers that they get from local suppliers I bought one of these for around 30 and it worked fine Later I found out that
37. Common Coil Wasted spark An automobile has ONE coil and a distributor rotor that determines WHICH cyclinder is getting the spark NOT ONLY THAT but the rotor is geared to spin slower than the flywheel so that the cylinder ONLY gets a spark when it is TDC top dead center on the compression stroke Fast forward to a motorcycle which is ALSO a 4 stroke engine but NO distributor and the firing sensors are on the flywheel spinning 1 1 You see where this is going The Flywheel Pickups fire the ignition spark EVERY revolution You get a spark on both the Ignition stroke and the EXHAUST stroke EXAMPLE The VISION has 2 coils one for each cylinder Makers of some 4 cylinder bikes also use 2 coils So two cylinders share the same coil AND more importantly get the SAME spark Again this means each cylinder gets exactly twice as many sparks has it really needs One during the compression stroke and one during the exhaust stroke WHY DOESN T THE VISION or 2 cyclinder bike share 1 coil Because you can only share a coil for opposing cylinders that are 180 degrees out The Vision V configuration requires seperate spark coils This wasted spark is meant to simplify the ignition system Manufacturers could cut the TCI circuitry in half and save coils weight and OH YEAH and money top11 2 VISION TCI Induced WASTED SPARK There is another phenomenon of wasted spark in the VISION It s unique to ignitions wired like the TCI Norm
38. HE PROBLEM HOW TO MEASURE A TRUE 12 VOLTS When you use a multimeter to test a point on a circuit for 12 volts all you ve done is prove it has 12 volts at that point You still really don t know if the wire at that point is capable of supporting any kind of AMP load This is where a multimeter can REALLY mislead you into thinking you have a good circuit Anyone who has tried to fix rusty lights on a boat trailer knows what I m talking about here Its got 12volts but the lights still don t work Yeah thats because the corroded connectors can only provide 12 volts at like 1 amp Enough for the multimeter but not for the lights SO how do you really check this if you think you might have power issues One technique is to test wire something to that point that really requires a solid 12 volts A normal not halogen headlight is good for this since they draw about 5 10 amps You get the drift here Wire something that requires real power and use it to check for your 12 volts CAUTION Just make sure the item you use doesn t drawn too much power or you will blow fuses and or melt wires BAAaaaddd topA3 3 TESTING circuit load TESTING AMP Now you can indeed measure AMPs on the circuit with a multimeter You need to break the connection you re measuring and then wire the multimeter inline to complete the connection To be exact you need to complete the connection using the multimeter in AMMETER mode Then the meter can show
39. I only costs about 80 And many bikes now use several of them for the same reason If you do the math you realize it may not be worth repairing My wife always seems to be able to do THIS math THANK GOD FOR EBAY top7 8 WHAT S INSIDE A CDI MODULE Timing Chip Daughterboard gt gt Fi CE 3E Ar Most CDI units are encased in Epoxy resin or Epoxy Rubber resin so you can t take them apart Epoxy Rubber resin will dissolves in acetone if you really want to see one apart They do this so moisture won t get in The downside is heat buildup WHAT YOU D MOST LIKELY SEE is some resistors capacitors a couple transistors you know the ones that fire your spark plug coils You ll also see the timing chip ANYWAY there s probably 10 in electronic parts and a 20 Ignition chip in a CDI module I m feeling generous That a 1 200 markup I m in the wrong business What goes bad in these things Typically it is the Timing Ignition chip or the Transistors The transistors really take a beating That s what generates heat in the CDI since they re essentially a switch going on and off at 10 000rpm Put your hand on the side of your big wattage stereo amplifier HOT same thing That s where the heat sinks for the transistors are And the Ignition Timing chip is like any other IC chip It s prone to breakdown with heat file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 20 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08
40. Ignition FAQ amp CDI Electronic Ignition Stators amp Charging Systems This guide was started for the YAMAHA VISION motorcycle group http ridersofvision net However much of this info applies to any ignition harging electrical system Specifically how this stuff works how to trace problems and ultimately how the driveway mechanic might fix an electric ignition or charging problem If you have comments or corrections PLEASE email I will update this when I can amp COPY 1999 Dave Leather Draper Jetav8r JetAv8r com My Vision Info Site Here YAMAHA Yamaha Vision Motorcycle Electronics Ignition FAQ Version 4 0 July 2005 x 7 UPDATED Designed for 1024x768 screens Photos amp Diagrams Download This Entire Guide As PDF Main Links How Does Electronic Ignition Work NEW page The basics amp big picture view of typical ignition systems Motorcycle Charging Systems and Vision Stator problems NEW page Basics of motorcycle charging How Vision TCI Works jump on this same page Disassemble amp Repair A Vision TCI NEW page Electricity Guide new page Battery Guide new page Top Vision Links Yamaha Vision Riders Group Vision Resources Page file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 1 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Yamaha XZ550RJ RK Ignition FAQ Table Of Contents e 1 Intro e 7 Electronic Ignition System Overview e 11 Wasted Spa
41. Images and where otherwise noted amp COPY 1999 David Leather Draper MailTo JetAv8r JetAv8r com Permission is granted for you to reprint or post this page in its entirety only with copyright notices and mailto links intact file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 43 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Visio allery 1 0010 jpg ae _ A E LJ ut 7 1 45 w NS y HAY file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0010 jpg 1 of 2 8 6 2005 7 13 10 AM file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0020 JPG file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0020 JPG 1 of 2 8 6 2005 7 13 11 AM file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0070 jpg Left Side View With Crankcase Cover Removed file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0070 jpg8 6 2005 7 13 11 AM file E _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0040 jpg FUSE ENGINE IGNITION STOP 10 _ SWITCH R W o o R 6 5 STARTING RW CIRCUIT CUT OFF RELAY CLUTCH 9 SWITCH N3 SWITCH NEUTRAL SWITCH file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0040 jpg8 6 2005 file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0050 jpg MAIN FROM ENGINE FROM din TO MAIN STOP SWITCH T C I UNIT BATTERY
42. Induced Current In the mid 1800 s Michael Faraday and others though micro Farads to this day is the measurement of capacitance developed the concept that a current passing thru a coil wire creates a magnetic field More importantly a magnet passing by a coil wire creates a voltage current The amount of current depends on the magnetic size and speed rate the magnetic field passes or changes by the coil The math equation for this is e df dt The change in magnetic field strength is df and the time rate of change is dt Technically e is the Induced EMF But we talk of this as the current produced in the wire coil actually PULSE file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 2 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 Electronic Ignition Overview Automotive COIL also called an INDUCTOR Seconda ry oil Output An iron core is wrapped with 2 long coils of wire The PRIMARY winding MAIS on the outside and the longer SECONDARY winding on the inside The wire Windi ng length ratio is typically 100 1 the secondary is 100 times longer than the primary Winding The coil is fed 12v to the primary winding This in turn creates a large enhanced by the iron rod magnetic field which also surrounds the Secondary windings The coil is now storing a large magnetic field a Flux field When the 12v to the coil primary winding is turned off the magnetic flux field inside the coil collapses This ca
43. NOTCHES Wire Colors ii Ee oer e s CAA HARMED 12v Power Pickup Common Gnd White k gt Plug Notches This Side N ote Black pin 4 prong connected internally to Black pin 6 prong gt gt PINS Standing at rear end of bike Looking at side of TCI case as mounted on bike gt gt PLUG Looking at plug from socket end WIRES OUT FAR SIDE top A2 gt SPARK TESTING file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 36 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ You want to see the spark from the plug wire Here s common method Pull the plug wire and cap off the spark plug Insert a small thin clean screw into the plug cap A screw is good because you can lightly screw them in for a good connection Screw end should protrude about inch out of plug wire cap end Position the plug wire with screw sticking out somewhere near a good ground The engine is good or some clean part of the frame Spark will jump through painted surfaces but the cleaner the better You are looking for strong Blueish colored spark to jump about 1 8 1 4 from screw end to engine ground If spark is weak make sure you have good connection inside plug cap Remember that this does not show you if spark plug is really working top A3 gt MULTIMETER USE topA3 1 Zero Out Multimeter Use a digital multimeter if possible Its usually more accurate for ohm tests and diode test but are harder
44. SIDESTAND RELAY STARTING CIRCUIT CUT OFF STARTER oe x p STARTER SIDESTAND MOTOR le SWITCH 1 WHEN THE TRANSMISSION 1 IN NEUTRAL WHEN THE CLUTCH LEVER IS PULLED TO 7 THE HANDLEBAR AND THE SIDESTAND IS UP file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0050 jpg8 6 2005 7 13 15 AM file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0060 jpg TCI ModuleAs Mounted Looking From Rear Uf Bike Wire Colors Red White Stripe Yellow Black 12v Power Pickup Common Grd White Rear Pic kup E Plug Notches This Side N ote Black pin 4 prong connected internally to Black pin prong file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0060 jpg8 6 2005 7 13 15 file E _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0030 jpg RECTIF IER REGULATOR MAIN SWITCH IGNITION FUSE ae IGNITION SWITCH gc R Weceo wm o ew eer a gt 00 r hE R W SIDE STAND STARTING CIRCUIT CUT OFF LAY TACHOMETER STARTIN MOTOR O SENDER IN THE METER NDICATOR FLASHER 3 4WX2 ELECTRIC FAN RELAY Uc 8 ELECTRIC FAN TH STATIC HENG MOTOR BRAKE TAIL LIGHT 12V 27 8WX2 T 2 65 6 NSE ER L BWX2 12 3 4WX2 INDICATOR iz i e file El _WebPages_Posted JetA v8rNew Vision ImageGallery 1 0030 jpg8
45. VANCE We advance the timing trying get the perfectly optimum time for combustion during the power stroke But as I mentioned earlier there are many variables that effect how long the complete combustion process takes So advancing the timing based solely on RPM probably doesn t cover all the possible scenarios But how do you tie those other variables into a mechanical contraption to adjust timing You see the problem To adjust the timing ever slightly more autos in the 70 s mid 80 s were fitted with an additional device called Vacuum Advance A large factor in the rate of combustion is the density of the fuel air mix charge in the cylinder A low density mixture burns slower than a high density mixture So the spark needs to occur earlier when the fuel mix charge is less dense which happens at closed idle or part open throttle cruise flat road operation At wide open throttle WOT operation the fuel air mix is dense and combustion is rapid so no additional advance is needed This additional timing adjustment was made with a vacuum advance This is a clever device that ties manifold pressure to a mechanical advance mechanism At part throttle operation like cruising on a flat road the manifold vacuum is high and engine load is low At full throttle WOT the manifold vacuum is low and engine load is high Look at the above photo The black device is the vacuum advance The open port would normally be connected by hose to the intake
46. WHAT IS Ignition systems have evolved over the years and been called many things Solid State Ignitors Breakerless Pointless Distributorless etc In outboards they re called Powerpacks or Pulse packs They go bad about every 5 10 years and also cost a boatload excuse the pun Yamaha calls this a TCI Transistor Controlled Ignition or Ignitor pack In autos we call them CDI Capacitive Discharge Ignition ECU Electronic ControlUnit or DIS Distributorless Ignition System I will say TCI and CDI for simplicity but top7 21 TCI IS NOT CDI I Repeat TCI is Not CDI The differences are subtle BUT you need to understand them or BAD things can happen To be exact TCI uses transistor switches to disconnect the coils This causes a charged coil to collapse and fire the spark This is known as Kettering or Induction effect So in the VISION the coils are powered up all the time except while collapsing into spark The VISION coils are constantly powered up at 12 volts but the induction energy stored in the coils secondary core is about 20 000volts TCI is an INDUCTION ignition system CDI systems use a different technique While the pickup and triggering is the same the output from a CDI ignition module is a short high voltage pulse to the coil In a CDI system the coil doesn t store the spark but instead AMPLIFIES the pulse from the CDI unit to a much higher level The pulse is from the CDI modul
47. Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild book I ve searched national ECG now NTE Archer RCA nor on the webpages of these manufacturers I found that in your page you make a comment that this transistor 01071 was replaced succesfully with the BU806 and or SK9431 I know this is not the same ign module than in a virago but I decided to give it a try Tried the NTE2315 To make a long story short I ll just say that it worked for less than 10 seconds After this short time the newtransistor blew again I was lucky enough to find a guy here that says he has new D1071 s In any case I was able to learn that there is another replacement the NTE2317 specifically designed for ignition modules that according to this guy does work in my bike s TCI See http www nteinc com specs 2300to2399 NTE2317 html This is a bigger chip that will require some mods to the heat sink to make it work I don t know if it will handle the 10 rpms of the bike but I wish I had tried it At 12 000 rpms my bike wasted spark coil setup are making 200 sparks per second per coil That is a spark every 5ms not important when compared to the longer fall time from the 2317 15us I looked for your heavier duty recomendation the TIP142 nte270 This doesn t seem appropiate for ignition circuits The nte2317 can handle way more current 15amps continuous and can handle spikes of up to 500volts almost a must in coil circuits It was nice to find your help page Fran
48. a magnet assing by It is similar to Hall Effect in that it is extremely accurate and durable But for whatever pason is only used mainly in manufacturing automation applications Modern Electronic Ignition Modules r the most part there are 2 types of ignition systems in use today or variations of them Induction ignition TCI Transistor Controlled enition or CDI Capacitive Discharge Ignition Both systems use a sensor discussed above to trigger a transistor switch which has placed the points CDI is becoming the standard and you ll see why Induction Ignition Kettering design is is called an induction system because the coil is used as a power storage an inductor device for the spark Remember the coil is pg wered up stores near 30 000 volts and unleashes it when the coil collapses power supply cutoff A feature of induction ignition is the Meh RPM These type of systems require coils meant for induction ignitions they have a higher resistance typically than CDI coils duction ignitions are simpler in design cheaper and used often on less sophisticated motors CDI Capacitive Discharge Ignition ommercial development of CDI happened around the mid 60 s Up till then it was regarded as worthless and even dangerous Well the dangerous part is somewhat right as you will see If your really bored here s a 1965 Danish sketch of an early CDI design and the bike it was file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision
49. a strong spark The charge the condenser absorbs while the points are open is releases back to ground when the points close again The capacitor also harmonicly tunes the coil raising the peak output voltage and increasing the secondary voltage rise time This increases the amount of energy transferred to the spark plugs If the coil secondary voltage rises too quickly excessive high frequency energy is produced This energy is then lost into the air waves by electro magnetic radiation from the ignition wiring instead of going to the spark plugs where we would like it to go Coil output is a function of coil windings turns ratio and also voltage input The more power you put in the more you get out right And more power is better right Well no We ll talk more about higher coil outputs later because it becomes a bigger issue with CDI where you can REALLY pump out some voltage It only takes about 10 15 000 volts to start the spark Higher voltage is better because it can jump a larger plug gap which is good for igniting the charge and for overcoming ignition wear worn fouled plugs wires etc A longer duration is also preferred because the EXACT millisecond the fuel charge will ignite is shifting slightly But big problems occur with high coil outputs also Flashover refers to the discharge of the ignition voltage anywhere other than at the spark plug gap Too high a voltage and frequency and the ignition is going to arc wires leak ou
50. age VCEO sus Collector Emitter Voltage Vcev 600 80 Vdc Emitter Base Voltage VEB 8 Collector Current Continuous 8 Peak 1 ICM 16 Base Current Continuous IB Peak 1 Total Power Dissipation TA 25 Derate above 25 C Total Power Dissipation Tc 25 80 Derate above 25 C 640 Operating and Storage Junction 65 to 150 Temperature Range 1 Pulse Test Pulse Width 5 ms Duty Cycle 10 THERMAL CHARACTERISTICS CASE 221A 06 Characteristic Symbol Max Unit TO 220AB Thermal Resistance Junction to Case C W COLLECTOR EMITTER COLLECTOR Thermal Resistance Junction to Ambient C W Maximum Lead Temperature for Soldering Purposes 1 8 Case for 5 Seconds Preferred devices are ON Semiconductor recommended choices for future use and best overall value Semiconductor Components Industries LLC 2002 1 Publication Order Number April 2002 Rev 5 MJE5740 D MJE5740 MJE5742 ELECTRICAL CHARACTERISTICS 25 C unless otherwise noted Characteristic Symbol Min Typ Max Unit OFF CHARACTERISTICS 2 Collector Emitter Sustaining Voltage MJE5740 Ic 50 mA Ip 0 MJE5742 Collector Cutoff Current Rated Value VBE off 1 5 Vdc VcEV Rated Value VBE off 1 5 Vdc 100 C Second Breakdown Collector Current with Base Forward Biased IS b
51. ago are a bit different The part number is either a ETD051 030 or a D1071 Both have the S with a line through and a circle around the logo like the Vision ETD41 I have replaced these with a RCA part SK9431 I suspect that any transistor that is similar or stronger will work as a replacement It is just a switch after all In the UK Brian Fosh is successfully rebuilding TZI at http tzrewinds co uk and testing them with a test bench setup He mechanically rotates a magnet with a variable speed 15 000rpm motor past the pickups to simulate the engine RPM This site is also worth a look He seems interested in this project and is a big help Lastly some misc info for general discussion e There are no known schematics of these Hitachi ignitors We have one from Uwe Werner posted on the XJ850 Triples site http w3 one net ryanr triplesite tech html It is in German and of course a triple Not too useful but you can generally see what s going on He reverse engineered a box to create this schematic e There is no way no test bench box to test a TCI module This is true of most any ignition module made in the world since manufacturers WANT you to buy a new one In this case you ll need to use your bike Just BE AWARE that if you mess something up you risk taking out other components equally important like the magnetic pickup sensors Good luck but be thourough e Test firing the TCI may be possible I will pass on a backyard trick
52. al CDI ignitions do not produce this phenomenon top11 21 WATCH THIS file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 31 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ Pull the rear plug wire off insert a screw and position near ground Power up the bike either with ignition key to ON or Run Stop switch OFF gt then ON You ll get a single spark out of the rear coil about 2 seconds after power on You get the same single spark out the front coil but its harder to pull that plug wire off with the sport fairing top11 22 WHAT S GOING ON At key on or Run Stop to on you power up the TCI and coils The TCI then shuts down since their is no engine rotation This auto shutdown is common in all electric ingnition modules It prevents the ignition from just sitting there powered up if the engine isn t running which is bad for the transistors Since a normal CDI sends a short high voltage pulse to the coil when it auto shutsdown nothing happens BUT the TCI is normally grounding both coils It fires them by momentarily disconnecting the ground You see where this is going When the TCI auto shutsdown it disconnects both coil grounds And sure enough BOTH coils fire one spark out each plug Now this same thing happens if you crank the engine BUT IT DOESN T START and then let go of the starter Since the engine stops rotating the TCI shuts off and you get a single spark This explains w
53. ample Combustion Process Timeline with Before and After Top Dead Center Piston Position Timing at 3 000rpm 34Btdc 24Btdc 5Btdc 5Btdc 15Atdc 10 20Atdc 20 25Atdc Combustion pressure actually starts to overtake normal cylinder pressure without ignition Cylinder Pressure Combustion Spark qu NC cylinder Combustion This 10 degrees of lag is known as Ignition delay double normal is now very Occurs ee pressure Complete Normal cylinder pressure without ignition is called compression line rapid PCP the compression line The peak cylinder pressure occurs between 10 and 20 degrees after piston top dead center ATDC on most engines and the combustion process is complete by 20 to 25 degrees ATDC The rise in cylinder pressure pressure gradient is technically called flagregation Obviously we want the combustion process to occur during the down stroke and that high pressure point at the optimum point of leverage for the piston arm to crankshaft angle To get this the spark and combustion process must be started much earlier Look at the graph above and you ll see at low rpm the spark occurs near 18 degrees before piston TDC BTDC From 5 degrees BTDC to roughly 15 degrees ATDC the combustion process is very rapid due to the progressing flame front and the high rate of energy release As RPM increases it becomes obvious that we must start the spark earlier or th
54. aph on page 8 14 file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 17 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ The TCI module uses a switching transistor to fire the coil This is how The coil gets a 12 volt input direct FROM the battery via ignition sw It is grounded the circuit completed BY the TCI The TCI transistor switches OFF the coil ground to collapse the coil and cause the secondary coil winding to spark If you test the Gray or Orange wire FROM that s right from the coil you ll see 12 volts If you look at the TCI pin you ll see near ground until the fire signal Then the TCI actually pulses a 12 volts at the pin This is a forceful way of cutting off the PRIMARY wire ground and forcing the SECONDARY winding spark The VISION has 2 coils one for each cylinder So the TCI module has 1 timing chip and 2 transistors One for each coil The VISION s 2 coils are mounted REALLY INCONVIENETLY under the gas tank inside the frame To get to them you need to remove the gas tank But coils VERY RARELY go bad And when they do they usually stop working period not intermittently The odds are REALLY small they both stopped working intermittently top7 5 WHAT S GOOD ABOUT CDI There are no moving parts like relays points rotors to wear out or adjust In theory a CDI engine never needs an ignition tune up again you know timing light etc This is not always true Remember a ca
55. arging system People often associate charging system failures with jumping a battery Its not the jump that did it most likely unless you hook the cables up backwards which instantly fries the rectifier usually The problem is that your motorcycle charging system is not heavy duty enough to charge a dead or bad battery e Crappy components The truth is the Vision stator is cheaply built The stator wiring fails Also both the stator and regulator could be cooled better for durability Any way you look at it the system tends to fail prematurely Myths These are some myths concerning charging systems and here are a couple e Jumping starting will damage your system Done correctly untrue If you jump a dead battery that is not good will not hold a charge the charging system may carry a heavier load for longer than it was designed for Remember the Vision system is rated in a perfect world for 20amps but NOT for the next 2 hours Add to that some bad connections headlights the stereo and A c I m kidding here and you get my point You may overheat and ultimately fry some part of the system stators regulator both If you jump the battery with the cables reversed you will also cream the system most probably the regulator e Disconnect one of the 3 stator circuit wires will help the stator run cooler and last longer because there is less unused electricity flowing through the system This actually sounds good in t
56. ating up the coils In newer CDI systems this term is near meaningless for several reasons Solid state devices like transistors control the discharge pulses electronically with near instantaneous timings So the dwell times can be finely controlled to achieve the best coil spark outputs for a given RPM Transistors can handle a LARGE amounts of voltage current compared to points And newer generation coils are extremely microseconds fast so charge discharge times are not a huge factor unless racing Newer racing ignitions like MSD are NOT producing bigger sparks with long durations but in fact getting more effecient burn by producing very controlled multiple short duration sparks to the plug top7 4 HOW the TCI Fires The COIL Exactly The flywheel pickup signal is fed to the TCI module Inside is a TIMING chip which controls the length of the spark and also its timing relative to the RPM As RPM increase the timing is advanced In the VISION this is 10 degrees top dead center at 1 300rpm to 38 degrees TDC at 4 000rpm Remember in old engines the ignition timing was advanced with RPM by using a vacuum driven diaphragm or a centrifugal weight on the rotor With CDI it is electronically advanced in the ignition timing chip based on some mathematical graph the manufacture has developed to maximize the engine horsepower in that RPM range that was too a long sentence If you have the VISION service manual you can see the timing gr
57. attery CAUTION file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 8 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ 3 Since you can t start the bike this way that draws way more than 10 AMPS you need to make another temporary connection alongside your multimeter in parallel Use a jumper cable 4 Start the bike Then disconnect the jumper cable the multimeter is still connected between the RED cable end and battery so the bike should keep running 5 The ammeter is now showing the draw or Charge taking place to the battery 6 Assuming your battery needs charging almost always the needle should show a positive deflection at around amps at idle and a little more as you rev up the bike 7 Stop the motor With it not running but IGNITION ON look at the amp draw Ignition and accessories should slightly peg the meter on the left side of case If you want to see the exact draw swap the RED and BLACK TEST LEADS around Amp draw without the motor running for stock VISION is about with headlight in low beam NOTE Read the Appendix section on Battery Care top3 4 MOISTURE Moisture inside the TCI module will produce ALL the ignition symptoms This is addressed later BUT be aware the TCI is NOT a sealed unit like most ignition modules WD 40 stands for Water Displacement on the 40th try long story The bottom line spray a bunch on your TCI circuit board can t hurt top3 5 SPARK PLUGS
58. charged now to HIGH VOLTAGE is NOT connected back to the battery and its high voltage charge has got to go somewhere It gets back to ground the battery by jumping the short gap in the spark plug or YOU if you happen to be holding the plug wire In the VISION the spark plug coil has a constant 12 volts flowing into the PRIMARY WINDING This causes the longer SECONDARY WINDING wire in the coil to charge up to a high voltage When the 12 volts of the PRIMARY WINDING is briefly interrupted by the TCI the coil electrically Collapses and causes the high voltage SECONDARY winding to discharge the Spark The input to the coil is 12 volts but the high voltage output spark is over 10 000 volts Again the difference between Induction TCI and CDI systems is this file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 16 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ CI collapses an already charged coil by disconnecting it TCI switches off briefly These systems generally use a higher resistance type coil and re known as an induction or Kettering ignition systems CDI sends a brief high 200 voltage pulse to an uncharged coil which act like a transformer and multiplies it even higher The step up is ormally around 100 1 These systems tend to use low resistance or racing oils CDI modules normally use low resistance type coils Remember that CDI is shooting a voltage pulse through the coil TCI or i
59. cisco Related Links David Denowh Virago TCI site http members aol com ddenowh TCl index html Brian Fosh TZ Repair site http tzrewinds co uk Allied Semiconductors http www alliedsemiconductors com NTE Semiconductors file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI_Rebuild html 9 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild http www nteinc com Digi key www Digi Key com Fairchild Semiconductors http www fairchildsemi com MSD Ignition Systems http www msdignition com Accell Ignition Systems http www mrgasket com accel htm Misc Ignition Stuff http www newcovenant com features motors ignition htm http w3 one net ryanr triplesite tech html http dmoz org Recreation Motorcycles Maintenance and Tech Tips file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI_Rebuild html 10 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Semiconductor NPN Silicon Power MJE5740 Darlington Transistors MJE5742 The 5740 and MJE5742 Darlington transistors are designed for high voltage power switching in inductive circuits They are ON Semiconductor Preferred Device particularly suited for operation in applications such as POWER DARLINGTON Small Engine Ignition TRANSISTORS e Switching Regulators 8 AMPERES e 300 400 VOLTS Inverters 80 WATTS Solenoid and Relay Drivers Motor Controls MAXIMUM RATINGS Rating Symbol MJE5740 MJE5742 Unit Collector Emitter Volt
60. computer that died with all the symptoms of a bad motherboard wierd video strange sounds no post no boot etc Guess what it was Bad 5 yr old plugs from the power supply DOES THIS LOOK FAMILIAR The heat and charring make this a cascading event It just gets worse slowly over time e 2 The Vision Stator fails internally Usually 1 of the 3 stator wire circuits breaks opens internally or shorts through bad insulation to ground the engine file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 7 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ e 3 The Rectifier fails internally You can use the fault chart from Electrex to isolate and check this But it does require a good meter some understanding of electronics and paience The RR is a heat sink surrounding an Epoxy filling circuit board You cannot inspect it since a dismantled RR looks like this below after using a grinder e 4 Charging circuit testing and everything else is BEST described at WWW ELECTREX COM o In short excuse the pun this is what you are trying to do You check to see if you have the correct DC output If not then check to see if the stator wires are good and also producing the correct AC current when engine running If they are then the regulator is suspect Check the diodes in the regulator To be more precise Output after regulator box should be 14 5 volts DC engine running no load Each stator wire
61. d across the combustion stroke This makes for a much more efficient burn Using this technique newer CDI can achieve longer other words if you drive mostly in Florida and then move to the high altitude Rockies you ve car is going to run rough for awhile till it atches up Most ignition memories can be zeroed out by removing power from the car for a noticeable length of time 30 minutes pn vee o J Ignitions Today and in the Future e GOOD NEWS is the ignitions systems are getting very reliable accurate and sophisticated The BAD NEWS is that you can t work on it poked under the hood of a new Ford F 150several years back and where s the spark plugs For that matter where are the spark g Wires and coil Yeah do I feel dumb file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 16 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview Spark Plugs pw generation auto ignitions are designed for more accuracy better efficiency and reliability This includes crank angle sensors to improve iming and fuel injection accuracy example mounting the Hall sensor and magnets on the flywheel Newer coils will be wound around an E ers to a coil that supplies the spark on every revolution so the cylinder will get one during compressio
62. d on the topside but soldered only on the single circuit foil on the bottom This makes it more prone for the circuit foil to peel up and fail due to vibration This problem less likely on the Vision TCI board which has circuit foil both sides and soldered all the way through Look at the pictures above The Vision TCI is more prone to component failure where the Virage TCI oftens fails to mechanical failure bad connection on board David Denowh is currently reconditioning TCI for the Virago group He has been VERY successful doing this but comments that many Virago TCI have simply failed from loose components His link is worth a look http members aol com ddenowh TCT index html Dave is so busy in fact that he has for now declined the possiblity of repairing Vision TCI But he demonstrates that it can be done The problem of course is testing what you have done and Dave has no easy way to test a reconditioned Vision module since he has no bike Here are some of Dave s comments I have been very lucky with the Virago repairs thus far I have done over 240 TCI units and they ALL have had similar problems Resoldering the board has repaired them all with only a few needing the transistors replaced I suspect these went 1 WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI Rebuild html 5 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild bad because the bike either had a bad coil or had a wire pinched somewhere The transistors on the Vir
63. d to know if anyone has experience with this type of fix for the Vision or has examined the improved rotor bolt for the 83 Venture If the latter just has a bore through its center that should be easy to accomplish Note that the article s bore is smaller than the value Mark gave I would be worried about effects on oil pressure does anyone have information about this response by Jason Morris Yes the Venture has a hole drilled thou the bolt but it is larger closer to the crankshaft A wire rests inside the hole keeping it clean and free from blockage The hole is only about 1 64 at the case cover side This keeps the volume and pressure high at all times My 83 venture had the update and was standard 84 on But you can t use a Venture bolt the size is completely different You ll need to have your bolt drilled at a machine shop or do it yourself with a cobalt or titanium drill bit on a drill press Fix the problem by Jeff Swan The problem with the stators is the excess heat created by the corrosion on the connections The drilled stator bolt was a stop gap measure by Yamaha when stators started burning up I guess they thought they needed more cooling when the problem was the connection and they knew they couldn t get everyone to clean the connections I did this mod to my Vision but that hole is welded up now as I have become better informed I don t feel it will keep your stator from burning up but will delay the inevitable I say keep the oil w
64. d your looking at the backside of the integrated circuit board DO NOT TRY TO PRY IC BOARD OUT OF THE TCI CASE It is held in by one small Philip screw and MORE IMPORTANTLY is soldered to the plug pins molded into the side of the case To get the board out you have to desolder the pins or break them off when you take it out You d then have to solder them or wires connecting them back together There is an easier way If you want to see the other side cut a large porthole into the plastic bottom other side of the case Use a dremel tool small cutting wheel This is risky because you can accidentally cut into IC components on the board MAYBE BETTER a sharp knife heated with a torch so your melting through the plastic Anyway GOOD LUCK Could be a Darwin award recipient file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 29 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Lay the case flat Cut down knife straight up down into the case about 1 2 in from the sides Another words you re cutting a rectangular hole out of the bottom cover 1 2 smaller than the bottom cover size One end of the module has the metal heat sinks which is why you need to cut about 1 2 in from the sides Cut no deeper than about 1 8 or you will cut into IC components top10 3 WHAT YOU WILL SEE You will see the two TO 220 style transistors with small aluminum heat sinks The heat sinks are molded into
65. e Runnning stalled a voltmeter onto my bike to be sure I knew what was going on There are other ways to achieve this A circuit to light GREEN when the battery is charging and RED when the battery discharging would be good There are commercial version of this available for about 40 The voltmeter above is made by TELEX Its a cool piece because it was made for watercraft and so is waterproof AND Telex is selling off RN line so if you can find one in your marine stores they going for about 25 now 9 2002 hat should a good charging system look like on the Vision Well there it is above Little over 14 volts when running and the battery needs effarging And unless you re doing long rides the battery always needs charging o m file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 11 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ Click For The BIG Picture What Goes Bad and Why arging systems have typical failures and some more common than others depending on how well built they are Here are the common res e Stator Winding failure o One of those 3 wires in the stator as broken internally or worse has shorted to the engine and ground This is most typical because the stator is exposed to a lot of heat and vibration inside the engine Wire insulation also decays over time Lastly if the regulator fails or the current draw from the bike is too great bad battery or
66. e bike its laying on its side running with the throttle somehow pinned opn top6 2 DISCONNECTING REV LIMITER CUT YELLOW BLACK stripped WIRE in 6 prong plug at TCI Tape the ends top6 3 HOW TACH amp REV LIMIT WORK The Tach has 4 wires connected to it BROWN 12 volt Power file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 11 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ BLACK 12 volts Ground GRAY Ignition pulse signal that the tach reads It is a tap off the Gray wire from the TCI to the REAR cylinder coil That splice is under the gas tank That s why if you lose the rear cylinder ignition you lose the TACH The GRAY wire signal from the TCI is a square wave trigger to the Coils primary winding It is normally near ground and the trigger is 12v to fire the coil and pulse the tach To be exact in the Tach I dismantled the GRAY wire became ORANGE after the 3 prong connector block outside the instrument cluster contrary to every wiring diagram I have YELLOW BLACK stripped wire This is the Rev Limit connection This is a single wire between the Tach and TCI When the Rev Limiter switches ON IN THE TACH it grounds the YELLOW BLACK wire You can try this yourself At the TCI disconnect the YELLOW BLACK wire in the 6 prong plug in the side of the TCI Then while the bike is running ground the pin where the YELLOW BLACK wire would be connected It causes the same thing The Rev Limit
67. e combustion process will complete later in the power stroke Another words we re not getting the best bang for our buck Consider an example timeline At 1 200rpm the file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 6 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview crank is rotating per every 05 second Let s say the combustion process takes about 60degrees of that revolution so about 008 second At 6 000 the timeframe is 1 10 of that at 0008 sec Typically timing starts at a preset level about 10 20 degrees and then is advanced to be earlier as RPM increases At about 3 4 000rpm the variables that change timing tend to even out and so no further advance is needed In the example above timing advance caps at about 3 500 rpm to 38 BTDC The graph above is known as the timing curve and while typical can quite obviously be hugely different for other motors DETONATION engine knock ping pinging While not advancing the timing would result in power loss advancing the time to far ahead is even worse If spark occurs too early then the combustion and resulting PCP can occur before TDC and the piston is still moving upward not downward This is BAD Detonation in any form is destroying the piston head I mean you can hear it banging itself to death PRE IGNITION Pre ignition is like detonation except it is less related to incorrect timing Something else is causing the charge to ignite too ear
68. e is normally about 250 500volts The CDI coil acts like a transformer and steps the voltage even higher A CDI coil typically steps up the voltage 100 1 Do the math and you see a modern CDI coil is outputing 25 000 50 000volts Oh Baby The spark coils here are wired directly to ground and are waiting for the high voltage pulse from the CDI module CDI is a CAPACITIVE DISCHARGE system file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 14 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top7 22 CDI vs TCI The higher output voltage of a CDI module produces a much higher cooresponding coil output voltage So CDI produces a much hotter cleaner spark It is the ignition of choice among race teams and now widely used for everything The CD in CDI means capacitive discharge This refers to the high voltage output of the CDI module which comes from a mini coil circuit of its own The downside to CDI is the short high voltage spark pulse duration This is better at high RPM but makes starting difficult You will notice many CDI ignition systems that use a starting ballast resistor type circuit This circuit ups the spark output in the CDI ignition for starting only TCI produces a longer spark duration which some might argue is more reliable top7 23 How CDI TCI works Click On Photo For Click On Photo For y 87 IGGER Pickup Magnet on Flywheel Outside 2 Ignition Pickups on right of stator A CDI modul
69. e picks up a signal sent from a sensor usually otside the flywheel The sensor can be optical infared but most often is electro magnetic In smaller or older engines like motorcycles the system is usually a magnetic rotor and coil pickup The other Hall effect systems are usually used in auto or newer motors Hall effect pickups are different and need to be powered so there is usually 3 wires to those pickups In the common motorcycle pickup a magnet on the flywheel passes by a small coil pickup This produces a small electric pulse in the coil just like it does in your larger magnet stator charging circuit This small pulse is amplified inside the ignition module and used to switch a transistor which in turn controls the coil The flywheel usually has a combination of magnets and pickups In the Vision there is one magnet and 2 pickups one for each cyclinder Since there is no distributor directing which cyclinder gets the spark each cyclinder has its own coil Or 2 opposing 180degrees out cyclinders can share the same coil and get file El WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 15 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ twice as many sparks 1 in compression and one wasted in exhaust stroke Refer to wasted spark section The gap distance between the magnet and sensor is very important as is the phase when the magnet passes the sensor The magnet is producing a sine wave low high low voltage pulse for the CDI
70. e the charged coil want to unwind and if there is some leaky insulation in the coil it will fire out the side to the frame After some time of this you can burn a hole thru the coil insulation and make this phenomenon permanet Since the coils are mounted REALLY inconveniently under the tank its worth checking what you can before dismantling half the bike If your tests point to a bad coil don t forget it could simply be a bad plug wire file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 33 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top13 2 SPARK TEST Insert a screw in plug wire cap Position near engine a good ground You should see a nice BLUE spark jump across at least a 1 8 1 4 inch gap If spark seems weak suspect these gt gt low voltage from battery direct to coil via ignition switch gt gt poor ground or low voltage from TCI coil trigger wire gt gt Bad TCI timing circuitry gt gt Bad Plug Wire In theory I can t see how a bad pickup would affect spark strength but who knows top13 3 Ohm Test NOTE Make sure you don t touch the metal connections here or your body resistance and moisture will throw the resistance readings off Check the resistance you d expect from a good spark coil Set a multi meter to Rx1 and Zero out the meter Pull off the 6 prong plug on the TCI Put Black test lead on the frame ground TO Check the PRIMARY WINDINGS of the coil put the Red lead
71. elated Emails I have read your instructions on fixing Yamaha TDI units with glee since I have been long searching for information on the control box for my 1988 VX250 However I believe I have stumbled upon a more suitable replacement for the T 220 footprint NPN Darlington power transistors used in my box Using this device will be a simple swap rather than requiring shoehorning the larger T 18 size devices you list Hopefully this information can help others This device is readily available for 1 60 each from Digi Key www Digi Key com with no minimum order Dennis Meyers You were right ZDB1 and ZDAI are the same and equal 8 2 V In my case it turned out that the only ZDB Idiode was broken I exchanged this zener diode to new one and finally I ve got a sparks on both cyclinders Both transistots ETD41 035 were ok Unfortunately I was not able to ran the engine There were the noise came out from the engine so I stopped running it I am going to look inside the engine and try to find out what s going on If you have any questions let me know Best regards Kriss from Poland I own a 90 Suzuki gs 1100R Nice bike except that recently the TCI module went bad One of the transistors that drive the coil was shorted So I couldn t find a replacement anywhere its code is D1071 This doesn t appear in any replacement file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI_Rebuild html 8 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM
72. er KILLS THE IGNITION to the FRONT CYLINDER coil at about 12 000rpm If you re curious how I know this I connected an oscillator to the Tach powered it up and ran the tach up to well pegged It thinks it s connected to the engine At 12 000 exact on my bike it grounds the Y B wire top6 4 INSIDE THE file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 12 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Inside the Tach are 2 small separate circuit boards One is the Tach And the other is obviously this Rev Limit switch I say switch but this is a solid state circuit board switch NOT a mechanical one An IC chip on this board is obviously counting RPM top 7 gt IGNITION SYSTEM OVERVIEW top7 1 SYMPTOMS file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 13 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ There s are a million of them but these appear most common While riding one cylinder will stop firing intermittently at higher rpm The bike still runs on one cylinder but with a lot less power and will be very hard to start if you stall it The tach MAY go to zero when this happens Typically this lasts about 2 15 seconds and then may cut back in and run normally Both cylinders will alternately stop firing Sometimes it will not run at all at low rpm Tach is also at zero or may jump around wildly Bike backfires badly etc Gets worse when its hot top7 2
73. etAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 6 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top3 15 REPLACING FUSE BOX Replace each fuse with plastic ATC BLADE type fuses Get the good ones with a rubber case and snap on tops Look in a good marine store Boats US or auto shop Pep Boys etc Solder these inline into the wiring harness Use shrink tubing electrical tape liquid rubber or Die electric grease to insulate the connections from ground The idea here is to prevent ANY corrosion from getting in these connections IT CAN MAKE A REALLY BIG DIFFERENCE top3 16 PROTECTING CONNECTIONS A GOOD technique is to use Dielectic grease to protect fuses and connectors This is SPECIAL grease that WON T conduct electricity Get in good auto parts store GET THE RIGHT STUFF or you ll have big problems on your hands Dab the stuff all over connections AFTER THEY ARE CONNECTED not before you want to protect top3 2 CONNECTIONS and HOW TO REALLY CHECK FOR A GOOD 12 VOLTS Most of the wire connections especially in the plastic plugs are crimped on connectors These are especially prone to corrosion or getting loose A BAD connection is easier to find than a POOR connection Here s why A poor connection will conduct 12 volts shows good on your multimeter but may cause enough voltage drop that there s really no power amps going to the thing its supposed to TCI COIL PICKUPS A poor ground or is EQUALLY BAD or The connect
74. etAv8rNew Vision Stator DashRunning jpg file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator DashRunning jpg8 6 2005 7 13 38 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild Rebuilding The Yamaha Vision Motorcycle TCI Electronic Ignitor Module Electronic Ignition This guide explains the basic theory behind possibily rebuilding a Yamaha Vision TCI or any motorcycle ignitor box for that matter Have I done it No Has it been done by others Yes Unfortunately we don t have any DETAILED explanation of a rebuilding project But there is enough info here to get you pointed in a GREAT direction This is linked from the Vision Ignition FAQ amp my Vision Home Page If you have inputs to this page PLEASE email I will update this for fellow Owners Vision Riders Group Last Update June 2003 amp COPY Dave Leather Draper JetAv8r JetAv8r COM Download PDF of the page Link Back To Ignition FAQ TCI Circuit Board Click On Photo For Even Bigger Version file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI_Rebuild html 1 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild EL an Ld oe gt 2 TTPA AI 4 E C2R PCB Board taken out of box file El WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI Rebuild html 2 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild l AE T i gt E 207 gt 2222222
75. g If your super lucky your workshop manual will detail how this can be done My 1973 outboard CDI could be fired manually and it was part of the factory service guide The problem 15 there s no universal solution that I know of yet Certainly you re not going to risk frying a good ignition module by trial and error AND unfortunately the workshop manuals for most ignitors don t include this I will pass on a backyard trick as told to me by roadrunner but I HAVE NEVER TRIED But it sounds like it should work He writes Just a quick backyead test you can use one of them soldering guns you know the hi current pistal type It will trick the magnetic pickups to send pulses becouse the gun creates a dense magnetic feald around the tip Carfule not to burn something doing this The pickups will sense these magnetic fealds and send firing pulses at 60 hz to the module It makes it a lot easer to troubleshoot without kicking the starter each time top8 8 HOW TO REPLACE THE PICKUPS Get Haynes or Factory manual for this one I will say this though You must take GREAT CARE putting the crankcase cover back on and also how you seal and sealant type the wire bundle from the sensors out of the engine crankcase If this is not done correctly you ll end up with an oil leak out of the crankcase and have to do it all over again top8 9 BAD NEWS ABOUT PICKUPS The pickup sensor can fail and take the CDI with it or visa versa I
76. ghts don t need DC whereas things like relays and displays do A simple regulated Lighting Coil oputput circuit would look like this Lighting Coil Headlight fe AC Regulator Ground Ground Ground WHITE WIRES o Connect from rectifier via a NOTORIOUS CONNECTOR to stator under crankcase cover left side of bike Order is not important But the connector pictured with RR top of page is notorious for getting corroded dirty and melting from voltage drop resistance file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 5 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ o Connects from Recitifier to 12 volt hot all the time from battery This is the main output wire from RR to battery 1 BLACK WIRE o Connect from Recitifier to frame ground 1 BROWN WIRE This is the Extra wire found on some RR circuits o This wire is connected to 12 at the ignition when the key is on It provides the reference voltage to the RR The advantage is that this is low current circuit and provides a more accurate reference than the main battery wire RED above o Disconnecting this wire will have unpredictable results The most likely screnerio is that the RR will view the reference voltage low zero and the RR output will be a constant 14 5 volts at all times Another words the RR will constantly charge the battery regardless of battery level o This wire is not shown or used on some m
77. h pole flux current in the stator coils This current is called A C current since it flucuates voltage in a Sine Wave The stator is wired so that there are actually 3 circuits producing A C current Each circuit A C wave is 1 3 out of phase with the previous winding Rectified output It is important to understand these things e The stator A C output voltage varies with engine RPM The more RPM the more voltage So the stator output must be Regulated to provide 12 15 volts into the bike system The raw A C output from each circuit is about 50volts ac at medium RPM e The A C output is convert to D C by clipping the bottom negative portion of the A C wave off The A C current has been rectified so that only the positive portion remains file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 3 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ e The Regulated and Rectified output is shown above It is 12 14 volts positive DC Notice that the bottom chart is simply showing that the rectified output is somewhat dirty Since the negative output is simply chopped off the AC the positive DC output is more like a slightly fluctuating sawtooth wave This is good enough for automotive purposes but would wreak havoc on delicate computer circuit e Lastly understand that the AC current is provide between any combination of 2 of the 3 white wires coming out of the stator The AC phase is fl
78. h Teslar and the left hand rule if you want to know more the inductor COIL encourages current flow towards the plug from the secondary winding But the collapsing magnetic field also produces the phenomenon discussed above called Back EMF This 300 voltage spike in the primary winding would cause a mini spark of it own across the points Another words the primary winding would cause a spark across the points just like the secondary will cause a spark across the plugs To facilitate the collapse of the primary winding and to prevent point gap spark a condenser is used The condenser is a large capacitor Only the automotive industry calls it a condenser and no I have no idea why When the points open this coil collapses Remember a coil output is strongest when the collapse is fast and sharp The condenser slows file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 3 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview this collapse by absorbing the initial shock current of the primary winding It helps shape the coil collapse to produce the high power secondary collapse AND slows the collapse of the coil just long enough for the points to get far enough apart so the coil back EMF output won t arc across the points Without a condenser the backflow arcing and heat would destroy the points sometimes in a matter of seconds However the condenser can t be too big either or the coil would collapse too slow and not produce
79. happening down stream Therefore the connector is always passing or attempting to pass the max amps available The way the problem develops When the connector is rendered inefficient due to corrosion the alternator continues to put out all the amperage it can It doesn t know or care about the condition of any of the electrical components that follow after it It just stays busy doing its thing However since the connector is now not able to pass through 100 of the energy going into it it passes what it can and the rest of the energy backs up in two places and defaults into heat at both places One place is the connector itself and the other is the alternator stator coil The heat in the connector melts the connector plastic which turns all gunky and greasy and nasty and generally adds to the connectors ineffeincy which in turn compounds the problem The heat in the stator coil melts the coils insulation which eventually fails and allows the energy the coil creates to go to ground via the engine cover that the coil mounts on That is why the test for a failed coiled looks for continuity between any one of the stators 3 coils accessed through the 3 white output wires in the stator side of the connector and ground the engine Continuity indicating a failed stator coil Don t forget to please not loose track of where the problem originated namely corrosion within the stator connector The Big Clue here is the condition of the connector A melted
80. heory No really But untrue Don t take my word for it Call any knowledgeable shop in the world please And really if this were true this technique would be used on every generator in the world and quite clearly it is not 0_00000 e Magnets never go bad Sort of untrue Magnetism is a nebulous thing how often do you get to use that word and from grade school science you should remember that iron magnets tend to lose strength with vibration and heat Where are those stator magnets again How often is this a problem RARE About as rare as a spark coil going bad BUT it is possible and should not be totally left out of your thinking I had an alternator rewound twice for a car that never quite put out a great solid voltage when loaded up to its rated amp output What s left that can be wrong Crappy magnets Remember in a motorcycle unlike an all parts in one alternator your charging parts stator magnets regulator are all separate pieces Preventive Measures For The Yamaha Vision charging system ess you buy and install a newer aftermarket stator and regulator see ELECT REX link below you can t make it a better system So the rick is to make what you have bullet proof Here are the tricks recommended by others lifted verbatim from the Vision Forum archives e Make all connections in the charging system clean and protected Solder wires to their respected plug pin ends Use WD 40 Use file El _WebPages_Posted Jet
81. here it can do it s job in the main and rod bearings and fix those connections Use some synthetic oil for cooler running oil tamps if nothing else Battery Trivia Cranking Amps Cranking amps is the spec that tells you how much current a battery can produce for 30 seconds at a temperature of 32 F and not have the voltage on any of the individual cells drop below 1 2 volts 7 2 volts for a 6 cell automotive battery This may also be known as MCA or marine cranking amps Cold Cranking Amps This is the same test as cranking amps but is done at 0 F The CCA spec is especially important if you live in a really cold climate Since the chemical reaction that produces electrical current in the battery slows down as the temperature drops the battery can produce less current at colder temperatures especially below freezing When comparing the current capacity of batteries make sure that you have some standards to qualify the current ratings If you see the current rating without CA or CCA you don t know how the battery was tested and the current rating is virtually useless Reserve Capacity The reserve capacity is the time that a battery can produce 25 amps at 80 F before the individual cell voltage drops below 1 75 volts 10 5 volts for a 6 cell automotive battery Deep Cycle vs Standard Battery A normal lead acid battery will be damaged if it is completely drained even if it s only one time A deep cycle battery is designed to sur
82. hris Arrowroot I ve seen that fix too but I can t believe spraying hot oil on the stator would improve its situation Oil Cooled Stators by Dale The Vision s stator is already oil cooled but the flow is too limited or not even resulting in the over heating at high Ramps Increasing the oil flow would help but I have no idea as to how to make sure that it is flowing in and back out Possible source for this stator cooling tip by John Logan I do not know whether drilling the rotor bolt helps the stator longevity problem but I have a clipping from the March 1984 issue of Rider Magazine discussing a similar fix for the Venture which is very much like a four cylinder version of the Vision One of the foremost problems acknowledged by Yamaha has been stator failure The file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 17 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ alternator has been running in an insufficient oil bath which has caused the stator wires to overheat and short out Ours failed at 11 500 miles Most have been giving up at around the 8000 to 10 000 mile mark In order to lower the operating temperature and increase the reliability of the AC generator an improved rotor bolt with a 0 7 mm 0 0276 inch JAB oil passage must be installed This supplies additional oil to the generator area to cool the rotor and stator An improved Venture stator has been designed for 84 I d be intereste
83. hy you get a DELAYED single misfire backfire after cranking but get no start Especially if the battery is low You have enough juice to crank but not for a good spark Then you let go and get a GOOD full spark 2 seconds after as the TCI shutsdown With fuel vapor in the carbs bang AND since you re getting 2 single sparks regardless of where the engine stops you could get it in a cylinder valved open to the exhaust which has fuel vapors in the muffler KA POW Now this is not the same plug firing you get IMMEDIATELY after letting go of the starter In this case you have managed to catch the timing just right The powerful non loaded starter battery spark just happens to take place at the correct moment as you let go of the starter top 12 gt TCI POWER ON TEST You can test the basic properties of the TCI modules power up auto shut read 11 above This is same for both Front and Rear coils Read Appendix on Checking for Spark if not familiar top12 1 POWER ON TEST AT SPARKPLUGS Unplug Front Rear plug wire insert screw and position near ground Set Run Stop switch to STOP Then turn ignition key to ON gt Every time you turn the Run Stop switch from OFF to gt ON you should see a single spark about 2 seconds after power ON If you do not see this spark then file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 32 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ gt coi
84. igure 8 Turn On Time t TIME us 1 Vcc 250 V 0 7 Ip1 182 0 5 tf Ic lg 20 0 02 0 3 05 0 7 1 2 3 5 7 10 Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS Figure 9 Turn Off Time http onsemi com 5 MJE5740 742 PACKAGE DIMENSIONS TO 220AA CASE 221 09 ISSUE AA NOTES CTS sae 1 DIMENSIONING AND TOLERANCING PER ANSI Y14 5M 1982 C 2 CONTROLLING DIMENSION INCH 3 DIMENSION 2 DEFINES ZONE WHERE ALL Se BODY AND LEAD IRREGULARITIES ARE i ALLOWED INCHES MILLIMETERS piM MN MAX MN MAX A A 0570 0 620 1448 15 75 u B 0380 0405 9 66 10 28 C 0 160 0 190 407 482 D 0 025 0 035 0 64 0 88 0 142 0147 361 373 G 0095 0 105 242 2 66 0 110 0 155 280 393 J 0018 0 025 046 064 0500 0 562 1270 1427 L 0 045 0060 115 152 0 190 0210 483 533 J 0100 0 120 254 3 04 0080 204 279 S 0045 0055 115 1 39 STYLE 1 T 0235 0255 597 647 PIN 1 U 0000 0050 000 127 2 COLLECTOR V 005 1145 3 EMITTER z 0 080 204 4 COLLECTOR http onsemi com 6 MJE5740 742
85. ing TCI vs CDI Vith the Kettering Induction ignition design the coils are powered all the time at 12 volts and are commanded to collapse to spark by the gnition module Here the ignition module disconnects the primary winding coil ground The coil secondary winding collapses to spark at out 30 000 volts In the CDI design the coils are not powered They receive a short high 250 volt pulse from the ignition module and then amplify that 100 1 to a much larger voltage spike about 40 000 volts Since the potential output of a CDI coil can be over 40 000 volts you ave stickers all over your engine bay reminding you that This can KILL you Advantages Disadvantages of Electronic Ignition e advantages of solid state are numerous but the big one is no moving parts This should translate to control and reliability impossible to hieve in any mechanical system The term engine tune up is nearly meaningless with respect to modern ignition systems Outside of eplacing plugs and inspecting wiring there is not much else to do More than a few mechanic shops exploit the public misunderstanding of odern engines Having said that the disadvantage of electronic ignition is simply reliability Ay desktop computer circuit board should last a LONG time in theory and yet you know quite clearly it does not sometimes Ignitions have suffered the same evolution of making electronics that can stand the test of time Early ignition systems were particularly
86. ing load line shaping etc The safe level for these devices is specified as Reverse Bias Safe Operating Area and represents the voltage current condition allowable during reverse biased turnoff This rating is verified under clamped conditions so that the device is never subjected to an avalanche mode Figure 7 gives the complete RBSOA characteristics The Safe Operating Area figures shown in Figures 6 and 7 are specified ratings for these devices under the test conditions shown 16 10 2 8 3 Lu 5 ms 2 1 o 5 05 BONDING WIRE LIMIT THERMAL LIMIT SINGLE PULSE 01 SECOND BREAKDOWN LIMIT MJE5742 0 05 CURVES APPLY BELOW RATED VcEQ MJES5740 0 02 5 10 20 50 100 200 COLLECTOR EMITTER VOLTAGE VOLTS 400 Figure 6 Forward Bias Safe Operating Area Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS MJE5742 MJE5740 200 300 400 500 0 100 COLLECTOR EMITTER VOLTAGE VOLTS Figure 7 Reverse Bias Safe Operating Area RESISTIVE SWITCHING PERFORMANCE 1 tr 0 7 0 5 0 3 0 2 t TIME us Ip1 B2 0 1 Ic lp 20 Voc 250 V 0 07 0 05 0 03 0 02 0 2 0 3 0 5 0 7 1 2 3 5 7 10 Ic COLLECTOR CURRENT AMPS F
87. ing a TCI We have not had anyone document in detail fixing a TCI but clearly know that it has been done Would be great to hear from someone who has done it There are also 2 other pages dealing with basic electronic theory and batteries The 82 83 VISION has a Transistor Controlled Ignition system TCI This type of ignition is used on many older non automotive motors look at a Virago and is closely related to modern Capacitive Discharge Ignition CDI systems While technology advances bring us to the computerized ignition systems of today the principles of ignition have remained fairly the same The 2 cyclinder Vision motorcycle TCI system consists of file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 3 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ 2 sensor pickups under the crankshaft cover magnet on outside edge of flywheel triggers sensor pickups 2 spark coils 1 for each cyclinder a solid state module box ignitor that controls the spark Solid state electronic ignitions were introduced in the early 70 s my 72 Outboard has one became widely used in autos in the mid 80 s and are now common on ALL motors The Vision ignition has the typical problems associated with older and poorly built solid state ignition systems The sensors or control module will fail completely OR more frustratingly the ignition becomes erratic and usually increasingly worse when hot Electronic Ignitio
88. l is bad check swap coils etc gt pickup is bad this will not happen with sensor disconnected from TCI which suggests to me that it will not work with a bad pickup either gt TCI is bad To see if the TCI is trying to fire the coil check this top12 2 POWER ON TEST AT TCI PINS gt Disconnect GRAY or rear coil wire from TCI 6 prong plug gt Leave rest of 6 prong plug 4 prong plug connected to TCI normal gt At the GRAY wire pin on TCI check gt At Power ON the pin should read NEAR ground see appendix for near ground if unsure use the ohm setting NOT continuity It ISN T a true ground connection gt At 2 seconds after power ON pin should go 12 use volt setting If TCI is correctly trying to fire the coil then you have a bad coil or wiring connection at the coil NOTE Test is same for front coil ORANGE front coil wire top 13 gt COILS top13 1 SYMPTOMS It is rare for a coils to go bad It would beREALLY unlikely for both coils to go bad at the same time So think about your symptoms Usually spark coils either work or they don t They are rarely intermittent BUT having said that coils can produce poor or erratic spark because bad internal wire break or insulation so that spark jumps out the side of the coil very affected by moisture in the air internal short corrosion and poor connections NOTE It is always a bad idea to run an engine with a plug wire disconnected That is becaus
89. loyees subsidiaries affiliates and distributors harmless against all claims costs damages and expenses and reasonable attorney fees arising out of directly or indirectly any claim of personal injury or death associated with such unintended or unauthorized use even if such claim alleges that SCILLC was negligent regarding the design or manufacture of the part SCILLC is an Equal Opportunity Affirmative Action Employer PUBLICATION ORDERING INFORMATION Literature Fulfillment JAPAN ON Semiconductor Japan Customer Focus Center Literature Distribution Center for ON Semiconductor 4 32 1 Nishi Gotanda Shinagawa ku Tokyo Japan 141 0031 P O Box 5163 Denver Colorado 80217 USA Phone 81 3 5740 2700 Phone 303 675 2175 or 800 344 3860 Toll Free USA Canada Email r14525 onsemi com Fax 303 675 2176 or 800 344 3867 Toll Free USA Canada it Email ONlit hibbertco com ON Semiconductor Website http onsemi com For additional information please contact your local American Technical Support 800 282 9855 Toll Free USA Canada Sales Representative MJE5740 D
90. ly Often a lower octane gas could cause this because of its increased tendency to auto ignite Could be a hot spot in the piston head or hot carbon buildup on the spark plug end Maybe the wrong heat rated spark plugs is being used for the type of engine use plug running too hot In any event adjusting the timing can solve this phenomenon Unfortunately older motors were not adjusted for this while the motor was running so the type of gas you used was locked in at the tune up Now there s more lee way as modern auto engines compensate for engine knock as part of the timing adjustments TIMING ADVANCE Early Electronic Ignition Distributor with dual points centrifugal advance and vacuum advance re T v see THIS ues gt at iv en X 1 file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 7 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 Electronic Ignition Overview es a In early ignitions the timing was advanced mechanically with RPM Normally this done was with small weights and counter springs inside the distributor As RPM increased the weights were pull outwards by centrifugal force and shifted the points around the cam changing the time they would open close The photo above shows the mechanical advance with spring Can you notice also that the photo above is an early electronic ignition So ignition advance is necessary despite the type of ignition being used VACUUM AD
91. ly So here s my guess I won t talk about 2 cycle cause that s a different animal But other small motors you simply aren t demanding that much out of them throttle acceleration load under changing rpm to notice any major performance loss from no advance So the motor is set at a worse case timing Not optimum but still runs consitantly At some point the motor and motor load performance hp makes timing advance worth it Common Problems with a conventional ignition system are Points wear and erode poor current flow and sloppy timing Points limit power input to coil limiting coil output Point dwell limits and point float or bounce limit high power at high RPM Mechanical Advance and vacuum advance wears Advance cannot be mechanically adjusted for all the variables especially detonation Points get wet and stop working altogether Timing belt chain wears and or breaks Basic Electronic Ignition Transistors and Pickups Sensors MECHANICAL ADVANCE PICK UP TRIGGER COIL YACUUM ADVANCE SIGNAL CONVERTER MODULE file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 10 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview e first improvement of electronic ignition was to replace the mechanical points with a solid state emiconductor switch called a transistor pictured above This is called a fast switching transistor to e in the heat vibration of an engine The t
92. manifold vacuum lines A vacuum driven diaphragm on the distributor advances the spark even more when the manifold vacuum is higher SO the spark is advanced more during closed or part throttle operation Example Advance at Wide Open throttle Initial Advance setting Advance from centrifugal advance only Advance at Close or Part Throttle Initial Advance setting Centrifugal advance Vacuum advance TIMING ADVANCE SETTINGS ADJUSTMENTS In earlier conventional ignitions you could adjust the initial timing by physically moving where the points were screwed onto the distributor This would need to be periodically changed as the points wore down They would also need to be changed as the engine got older and the cylinder compression was less due to ring piston wear As for the timing advance the centrifugal and vacuum advances were set by their physical mechanical design in the factory No adjustments were normally possible To change timing you could swap out the device with one from another car or another after market device SPARK PLUGS TELL THE TALE file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 8 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview The spark plug itself speaks volumes about how optimum the combustion process is Visually if the burn is good and combustion heating of the plug is correct you have the correct plug heat rating then the plug looks like this The insulator around the
93. manual triggering A3 1 Calibrate ohm Scale o 6 2 Disconnecting o 88 Replacing pickups A32 Volts vs Amps o 6 3 How Tach Limiter work e 8 9 Pickup kills TCI o A3 25How To Measure 6 4 Inside the TACH e 9 Checking TCI module Power Checks Good 12 Volt Connection o 9 1 Pin Plug Checks o A3 3 Testing Current Draw o 9 2 Voltage dropout test o A3 4 Voltage Drop o 9 3 Test while running o A3 5 Near Ground file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 2 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ e 10 TCI Disassembling Inspection e 4 Battery Theory and Care 10 1 Why Moisture problem e 5 Removing TCI Wires 10 2 Getting Inside The Black Box From Plugs to be added 10 3 What You Will See e A6 Electrical Theory Formulas o 10 4 Moisture Solution e A7 Rebuilding A TCI module e 1 The Author e B2 Credits amp Contributors e B3 Revisions amp Corrections top 1 0 gt INTRO The document you re reading here and below is primarily about the Vision Electronics with emphasis on solving ignition problems If you want to read about how most all ignitions work then open the new page on ignition basics listed above If you want to understand basic motorcycle charging systems or have problems specifically with the Vision open the new charging page listed above If you re already convinced your Vision TCI is bad and are motivated enough to try a fix it open the new page above on fix
94. n and also during the exhaust stroke be wasted spark design cuts the coil charge time in half so is not often used on extreme high rpm race engines luding increasing RPM vs decreasing RPM braking coasting or accelerating throttle position temperature altitude etc Even engine igock detonation will be eliminated by timing adjustments using listening sensors like piezoelectric crystals bolted to the engine Making Yours a Better Ignition For normal operations ple and in order of importance Plugs Plug wires CDI Coil e biggest enemy against ignition is RFI and insulation leakage Basically you want the best insulated thicker 12mm and well made plug gres you can get Remember this simple gradeschool phrase electricity takes the path of least resistance In the case of your engine this will be arc tracking across the plug and or out the plug wires due to insulation breakdown Upgrade your CDI module example performance hing curves high output etc if you want to spend a little more for higher performance Although a good coil is always a plus we ve 5 4 how meaningless SOME manufacturers high output claims can be in practicality short spend your money on a good well insulated system As long as the coil and CDI can meet the rpm demand s of the engine you are on p of the game Ignition Plug Wires pere are 3 basic types of conductors used in automotive applications Carbon string solid and spiral
95. n other words they can kill each other Especially if a transistor shorts 12 volts through the pickup coil you d probably see an open pickup coil Or the pickup coil shorts to ground at higher temp and fries the transistors file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 25 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top 9 gt CHECKING TCI MODULE en Or i EER 333 EN t eS sot gt a a file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 26 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ eve ds s Log M a TEN gigy b mnm deed erret E m top9 1 TCI MODULE 6 PRONG PLUG Disconnect the 6 Prong plug from the TCI module Key ON and check at the plug RED WHITE striped 12volts power for TCI BLACK 12 ground ground for TCI and pickups ORANGE 12v power from Front cylinder coil primary winding GRAY 12v power from Rear cylinder coil primary winding BLACKWHITE side stand relay wire Should NOT be ground or 12 side stand up YELLOW BLACK Rev limiter wire Cut this tape ends Should NOT be grounded file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 27 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ top9 2 TCI MODULE VOLTAGE DROPOUT TEST Check that you don t have a bad wire or connection to from TCI You are
96. nasty connector got that way from heat Where did the heat come from inside or outside the connector If inside what was the source The way I see it you have two options 1 Clip off the female and male halves of the connector and then solder each former female wire to a former male wire Of course each resulting soldered joint must be individually insulated It doesn t matter which former males are soldered to which former females All the wires on each side of the connection are white This what I have done and it has served me very well for the last six years even under extreme heat and load 130 100 watt headlight bulb situations The only usual reason to use the connector is replace the stator coil That problem is now fixed and the side left engine side cover shouldn t need removal for a very long time When that time comes simply clip the soldered connections and then resolder them upon reassembly 2 If you are paranoid about clipping off the connector and it is still serviceable clean the connector pins and sockets to bright and shiny condition and then apply a thin film of common non metallic wheel bearing grease to all metal connector surfaces Then reconnect as usual This process forms a vapor barrier that keeps air borne water away from the connector metal thereby inhibiting corrosion formation e Make sure you have and keep a good battery You can use a multi meter to measure the amp draw on the battery after starting With lights off it sh
97. ncipals Everyone at one time or another has suffered through some ordeal caused by a non working ignition system Whether its the lawn mower outboard chainsaw or the time you drove your Dad s car through that big puddle you ve been stuck somewhere or with something that would not run When troubleshooting non running engine problems I ve always used the GAS method gas air spark Have those 3 something should happen So this is a discussion of how we get the Spark part Review of basic ignition designs Basic Points Distributor Coil Kettering design DISTRIBUTOR IGNITION IGNITION COIL file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 1 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 Electronic Ignition Overview A Frenchman named Etienne Lenoir invented the electronic spark plug in 1860 Spark plugs haven t really changed THAT much since then But firing that spark plug has been a better evolution The Father of ignition is Charles Franklin Kettering man pictured left In 1909 Kettering in association with Edward A Deeds organized the Dayton Engineering Laboratories Company Delco As you ve already started to guessed from the name they invented the first automobile generator That road to the generator invention new device Kettering went on to become head of General Motors research laboratories and Vice President i of the Corporation Boss Ket would eventually receive over 160 U S patents f
98. nduction ignitions use and expect higher resistance induction type coils Remember current is flowing through the TCI to the induction coils continuously and the coil is fired when the TCI shuts it off The importance of this is In CDI this whole process of charge discharge is near instantaneous An 8 cylinder car running 5 000rpm is firing the single coil about 333 times a second The output voltage of the coil depends on the input voltage and how much longer the secondary winding is Some modern car ignition coils output well over 40 000 volts This can KILL The VISION TCI coil is probably guessing here about 20 000volts and if you get sparked will just shock the heck out of you top7 35 DWELL or DWELL ANGLE Dwell time used to refer mostly to the mechanical time the distributor points are closed in old ignition systems This affected the charge time of the coil and spark length Dwell was important then because at higher RPM the dwell time was not enough to fully charge the induction coil That meant less voltage spark at higher RPM BAD There was also the problem of how fast a point could open and close without floating a problem you have with valves also There was a real balance between dwell time at high RPM how much voltage you needed for high RPM spark how much voltage you could actually push thru a point without burning it up and then what would happen at low rpm long dwell times when all that voltage was just he
99. ngine diminishing the one coming out the proper end You need to pull plug wire off COIL and spark plug Check wire for continuity with voltmeter And look at the general condition of it If you have doubts replace it THEY are CHEAP top 14 gt IGNITION CARES top14 1 Ignition Burnout Don t leave your ignition on for a long period with the motor NOT running You wouldn t normally do this but maybe if you forgot etc This can in some cases trash a CDI module and pickups The ignition has a circuit that is supposed to shut down power to the transistors and coil if the engine is not rotating I suspect this circuit fails and over time the powered up TCI fries That is why older cars always had a separate key position for accessories only top14 2 Coil Care Avoid running the bike with the spark wire disconnected from the plug Its OK if you ve set up a spark test looking for the spark jump to ground But if the plug wire can t spark somewhere this could damage the coil The high voltage winding WANTS TO SPARK somewhere ANYWHERE Especially in humid conditions or with an older coil the coil can spark internally which can wear burn damage the insulation between the Primary and secondary windings APPENDIX top file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 35 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ A1 gt TCI amp PLUG DIAGRAM TCI ModuleAs Mounted Looking From Rear Of Bike Plug
100. ns fail usually due to electronic components switching transistors in the system breaking down with heat older transistors were not as good as today material defects bad or broken solder joints corrosion and bad connections to the module or inside the module normal life span MTF mean time between failure rate of older electronics diodes transistors etc A Vision TCI cost about 400 new and about 50 used If you have ignition problems you know your ride is not worth too much more than that Still it s a great ride If you want to fix it affordably here s your best chance Eliminate ignition problems in an organized progression and you will minimize the chance of buying a expensive parts you really didn t need example put the coil back you really don t need a new coil top 2 0 gt TROUBLE SHOOTING OVERVIEW top2 1 COMMON SENSE APPROACH You want to narrow down ALL the possibilities before you replace a TCI PICKUP or COIL If you can get beg borrow steal a good spare ignition then DO IT Bottom Line You have 2 coils and 2 pickups So you can eventually tell if one is BAD by using the other in its place BUT there is no SURE test of the TCI You can prove it s bad but you can t prove it s good Eliminate every other possibility and then you know it s a TCI module e REMEMBER Some Comon Sense Stuff o Plugs really do foul bad enough not to work check spark with plug removed o Don t conf
101. o reach 90 of its peak Fast rise times are desired as they help prevent aad breakdown plug fouling or plug tracking Plug fouling occurs when the spark is dissipated and runs to ground across deposits on the amd drops off significantly So while you may have a manufacturer claimed 60 000 volt racing coil you can t actually get that across the plug mice the advantage of CDI is the higher coil output how does that get used Well normally it doesn t The extra power possible in the coil is 86 the hotter CDI coil output can help overcome these obstacles and the ignition system will last longer So its not that its working better amt rather lasting longer that makes hot coil good The ideal coil output needed for normal applications is about 30 000 volts Migh RPM High Compression Racing applications Newer techniques are being used to increase spark output Additionally CDI has a very short spark duration near 10 12 microseconds As discussed you can t push more than about 20 000 volt across the plug without other strange phenomenon happening If you were to try you would see arcing down the side of the plug across carbon buildups at the efectrode end out any weak points in the wire insulation connections etc So how do you get a better spark Newer ignitions like MSD 5 example are outputting a finely controlled multiple spark pattern into the plug Instead of one big spark a shower of short duration sparks e floode
102. oating above the bikes 12 frame ground That means that NO white wire is connected to ground You measure the AC ouput of the stator between white wires only RECTIHER REGULATOR RR FN 3 Stator windings amp 6 diode Rectifier Bridge To bike s electrical system gnitionewitch main fuse The Regulator Recifier rectifies the A C current by using 6 diodes 2 per phase The more complex part of the RR is how it regulates the higher DC currrent down to provide a steady state 12 14v There are several varitions of the process but in simplest terms a circuit monitors the output voltage and shunts partially diverts the excess portion to ground Consider these things e The RR has a lot of current constantly flowing through it diodes etc AND the excess voltage is being divert directly to ground So the RR gets very hot in the process The construction is totally about disappating this heats Notice the heat fins Less noticeable is that the RR circuits inside are encased in Epoxy and esentially glued into the heat sink metal body e The RR circuitry can regulate the output voltage several ways How the Vision RR works is not exactly file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 4 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ know but here are some common designs and guesses o The RR actually regulates the AC output based on the DC output It shunts grounds out enough of the AC
103. odels In fact is not shown on my 1983 RK diagram but was clearly used on my bike Zu This wire is not on any diagram and is not used Wire ends at the plug an goes no where Have been told that it was on some models Vision and others to be source of power for lights on Euro or Canadian bikes The lights would only come on while bike was running Common Problems and Remedies e 1 Poor connections I believe this is this single biggest cause of stator RR failures besides the fact the Vision system is cheaply built Yes this is my opinion and here s why A bad connector creates a resistance in a circuit That resistance will generate heat The most obvious example is the connector to the stator You are generating 14v and 20amp That s a lot of current and over time the conector get dirty corroded If the connector is dirty that current that HAS to go somewhere ABSOLUTELY make sure you have good connections Run new wires if you have to remove connectors and solder suspect connections o From Stator to RR o From RR to Frame Ground Black Wire o From RR to 12 post battery Red Wire file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 6 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 Yamah Vision Stator FAQ Here is melted stator plug VERY TYPICAL on Vision What do you think is happening in other parts of this circuit Here s a fun example of the same problem of voltage drop This plug came from a desktop
104. oduce in the am fm frequency band BALLAST RESISTOR In order to increase the coil voltage at startup some ignition designs incorporate a ballast resistor The resistor is switched in and out of the supply voltage to the coil Once running the resistor is switched in place and the coil is actually getting less than 12volts When the engine is started the resistor is removed and the coil gets the full 12volts This provides a much better spark at startup to compensate for reduced battery voltage drawn by the starter When starting a cold engine the plugs and the air are cold the cylinder pressure is up and the fuel air mixture is poorly controlled The oil is thick the battery is cold and its voltage drops as much as 6046 because of the high current drained by the starter motor DWELL Conventional ignition is affected by Dwell time or dwell angle Dwell time refers to the time the points are closed thus recharging the coil Dwell angle refers to the crankshaft angle of rotation made while the points are still closed As an example if we talk about a 2 cylinder engine then the available dwell angle would be 180 360 degrees divided by 22180 degrees If dwell time or dwell angle points closed is too short the coil may not have enough time to charge at high RPM So large dwell is better right But if dwell is too large points hardly open then the points may not be open long enough for the coil to collapse at high RPM The ratio of closed
105. off when you take it out You d then have to solder them or wires connecting them back together There is an another way Try to avoid pulling the PCB out of the case Replacing any components while leaving the PCB still in the plastic box would be good Ultimately you d like to reuse the case wire plugs the whole setup To get to the other side cut a large port hole into the plastic bottom other side of the case Use a dremel tool small cutting wheel This is risky because you can accidentally cut into IC components on the board MAYBE BETTER a sharp knife heated with a torch so your melting through the plastic Anyway GOOD LUCK Could be a Darwin award recipient Lay the case flat Cut down knife straight up down into the case about 1 2 in from the sides Another words you re cutting a rectangular hole out of the bottom cover 1 2 smaller than the bottom cover size One end of the module has the metal heat sinks which is why you need to cut about 1 2 in from the sides Cut no deeper than about 1 8 or you will cut into IC components 2 Look for obvious melted components bad solder joints corrosion points or moisture and correct 3 Replace transistors Try it 1 WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI Rebuild html 7 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild 4 Replace capacitors and or diodes Try it 5 Replace resistors Try it 6 You re R
106. or his ideas It is in 1911 that he developed the first electrical ignition system or at least the design concepts that lead to that invention These early patents are hard to trace but a little research shows Kettering invented the engine starting lighting and ignition system Patent 1171055 featured here in PDF This early type of ignition design is known as the Kettering system points condenser coil or induction system It became the standard in the automotive industry replacing magnetos It is rugged and reliable but has drawbacks as you will see A lighting coil lighting system is a more tradition term for an auto motorcycle type self powered generator system So you and I know Kettering more as the man who invented the first practical engine driven generator known as the DELCO generator This was Patent No 1150523 A basic Kettering Ignition Design A chain belt or gear from the engine drives a DISTRIBUTOR Inside this distributor is a spring loaded contact switch POINTS riding on a revolving cam The points would open and close to fire a single coil which would produce the spark for the spark plugs Inside the distributor is also a ROTOR which rotates to determine which plug wire gets the spark A To Coil B Points lt A gt c Points E O Dwell Adjustment D Point Riding On a Cam E Rotating 2001 HowStuffWorks Inc Cam Driven by engine F Condensor Magnetism and
107. or will conduct 12volts but only enough to drive the mulitmeter not the part you really to make sure is working If you re not sure what this means please read the section on Multimeter use amp vs volts testing good connections Multi meter Use My favorite technique when checking a circuit I m not 100 sure of is to plug something into it to see if it works A good 12v lamp small headlight is good for this If the connection or gound will drive the light you know it can handle the load of whatever your concerned about Now you can check for these bad connections read the the appendix section on multimeter use BUT to my way of thinking just make all your connections bulletproof replace if needed in the ignition system and then you don t have to worry The telltail symptom of a bad connection is hot wires and or melted plastic connectors file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 7 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top3 25 CLEANING CONNECTIONS To CLEAN the plug connectors pull them apart clean them with a small file or knife Some people like pencil erasers Emery boards or 400 600 grade sandpaper are OK but remember to clean out the grit or you could make it worse Apply WD 40 or CRC liberally to wash the gunk out Reseat all the plugs There are not that many Specifically remove right engine cover Pull off the 2 plugs into the TCI IGNITOR module Behind the c
108. ouldn t be more than about 5 amps if that Much more and you have some problem going on there e The stator rotor is coated Definitely don t damage it with steel wool It produces an electrical field with the stator and should be left alone Repair and Maintenance of The Yamaha Vision charging system file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 14 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ et and Use A repair book he following discussions have been copied verbatim from rider messages on he Vision forum They concern repair or replacement of the Stator under the eft crankcase cover In short you must carefully seal the crankcase cover back o the engine or you will have dreaded oil leak This is particularly important around the stator and spark pickup wires which exit the crankcase cover tator Wires exiting crankcase cover pictured on left Yamabond 4 by Dan 1 Go to Yamaha dealer and obtain a tube of Yamabond 4 nothing else including Permatex 2 is quite like it as far as tenacity is concerned 2 Take left cover off again clean ALL old goo out thoroughly 3 Using fine sandpaper clean carefully ALL aluminum surfaces that the grommets come in contact with every stinking edge until bright shiny and clean 4 Clean ALL old goo off of every bit of the grommets themselves and wires 5 Run a thick ring of Yamabond around both grommets and directly on the wires where the
109. output to keep the DC under 14 volts The RR may regulate all 3 phases or maybe just 1 or 2 For example That means that 2 phases are producing full voltage while the 3rd is decreased to level off the DC ouput Obviously this puts a bigger burden on the regulator and that 1 phase A better design regulates all three AC phases equally o Where the RR measures the battery system voltage can be different The simple setup is that the RR has 2 wires Red 12v and Black ground The 12 wire is connect direct to the battery This connection obviously carries a lot of constant current which can over time build up some noticeable resistances voltage drop due to bad connections a Another common circuit is shown above This is used on MOST Visions but not all Notice that a seperate 12 volt wire is input into the RR This normally is attached to the ignition key on 12 and some other points of the bike to monitor voltage The advantage is that this connection carries less current and is more a accurate picture of the charging output This results in a normally higher RR output to the battery e Some Bikes not Vision but often dirt track use a Lighting Coil This is included for discussion purposes so you understand the slight difference A Lighting Coil is often a seperate winding on the stator to produce AC current for accessories typically lights The Lighting Coil output may be regulated or not and may not be rectified either Li
110. over the TCI is mounted is the side stand relay Reseat those plugs too top3 3 BATTERY A subtle problem with motorcycles is it doesn t take much power to crank one So that s not always a good measure of the battery status In fact by the time your battery gets to sounding low on the starter its just about gone AND if it low while running it could cause these symptoms tach jump tach dropout random misfire both cylinders top3 31 CHECKING BATTERY Using VOLTMETER Pull the 6 prong plug off the TCI you want no ignition for this Connect the voltmeter to the battery and crank the engine While cranking you should NOT see less than 9 10 volts With the bike running at about idle 2000rpm you should see about 13 14 volts top3 32 CHECKING BATTERY CHARGING Using AMP METER INLINE This is more involved But if you are motivated As you suspect there is a good relationship between your battery and charging circuit STATORS The stators in the VISION are notorious So this may be worth doing You need a multi meter with a good Ammeter scale capable of 10 or better You are going to check the battery charging system while the bike is running 1 Disconnect the RED cable from the 12 Positive terminal on the battery 2 Hook the Ammeter between the battery and RED cable Hook the RED test lead to the RED cable end and BLACK tester lead to the battery terminal You are completing the circuit from the bike to the b
111. plastic cover also holds the water reservoir file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 10 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 Ignition FAQ 5 gt ENGINE RUN STOP SWITCH The run stop switch on the handlebars provides 12 volts to the ignition coils starter cutout relay and the side stand relay So it s unlikely this is the problem if you can get your bike to crank and start BUT AGAIN if your bike is cutting out totally both cylinders tach goes to zero intermittently after you get it running this could be the problem top 6 gt REV LIMITER CIRCUIT top6 1 SYMPTOMS YES ITS TRUE The VISION has a REV LIMITER circuit that kills the FRONT coil ignition if the TACH reads over 12 000rpm The TACH reads the fire pulse from the TCI to the REAR coil via the GREY wire from the TCI to the rear coil That GREY wire splits somewhere under the gas tank If the tach senses an over rev it GROUNDS the Yellow Black wire to the TCI The TCI kills the front cyclinder coil pulse If the circuit malfunctions you ll most likely lose the FRONT CYLINDER ONLY the tach falsely tells the TCI its overrevved But it could also kill the REAR too if the tach shorts out altogether and also shorts the Gray REAR coil trigger wire You will not affect ANY part of the ignition charging system by disconnecting the Yellow Black wire from the TCI Why would you want to keep the Rev Limiter My best answer would be incase you drop th
112. points to open is usually about 3 1 The dwell time points closed has to be long enough for the coil to fully charge Typical dwell times charge time for a file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 4 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview Kettering designed ignition are 1 0 to 6 0 milliseconds Obviously dwell time limits the ability of points to control a coil to deliver high power at high RPM At high RPM you simple run out of time you simply don t have 6 milliseconds In addition points are inherently a sloppy mechanical device to begin with And worse at high rpm they start to float off the cam You can t get the points to spring back fast enough so instead of opening and closing they would hover just off the cam Points can also have a phenomenon called bounce where they don t ride evenly on the cam The upshot is that you can t control the coils fast enough at high RPMs Some race teams got around this by using dual point systems overlapping the dwell times to get what they needed CHARGE TIME VOLTAGE RISE TIME SPARK DURATION Again an induction coil setup charges is fully saturated in typically 1 6 milliseconds Race teams in higher RPM applications use low resistance coils to speed up the charge to about 3 milliseconds We ll see later it takes CDI about 1 millisecond The time it takes for the coil to collapse and reach 90 of its peak potential voltage is referred to as
113. puller like the ones used to say pull steering wheels off something that can be found at your friendly Autozone or similar store Now the 3 bolts where the wrong size and pitch for my need so I went to a hardware store that specializes in nuts and bolts and got 3 bolts allen not that it matters that would fit on the thread and would be long enough so they would be in the puller when I threaded them into the 3 flywheel holes So their length really depends on the puller you are using When you are ready to put the bugger back do remember to align the flywheel as there is a key notch arrangement between flywheel and the conical base where the bit nut is bolted to Besides that use the small bolt to hold the flywheel in place as you tighten it and you should be home free Misc Discussions tmeter Voltmeter by Burke Storti Has any body figured out how to install a volt meter or other indicator which can tell the condition of your charging system while the bike is being ridden With this at least we would have some warning that the stator is pushing up daisies I had a similar experience as Dan I came home from a 150 mile ride to discover my battery file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 16 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ was dead when I killed the motor in front of my house amp could not get it to start I have a voltmeter and some comments on what it shows by John Logan I
114. r engine has 1 coil They use a turning rotor under the distributor cap which determines which spark plug gets the spark This does gets worn a bit since it involves a timing belt to drive the rotor and the rotor itself wears In the VISION there are NO moving parts because each cylinder has its own spark coil and there is no rotor In newer high tech engines you will see CDI ignitions with seperate coils mounted atop the spark plug for each cyclinder This eliminates the distributor slop and radio interference problems associated with long plug wires top7 6 WHAT GOES BAD IN CDIs file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 18 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ 0245 lt L Electronic components HATE heat That is why most CDI modules have lots of heat sink fins on them Ever look how your Pentium chip is mounted DON T leave your computer on all night But Yea aah don t turn it OFF and ON 5 times every hour either because gt Integrated circuits also hate POWER SURGES and the THERMAL stress of going from cold to hot to cold The symptoms of ANY CDI type module going bad are very similar They start to fail when the engine and it gets hot They don t always fail altogether but gradually and intermittently as some or many IC components on the circuit board break down with heat This is why a good electronic repair shop has cans of Freon type
115. r mountainous terrain and has heard auto rough knows what I m talking about here _ _ hhh MISC IGNITION INFO file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 14 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview Dwell Othe points being closed This affects the charge time of the coil Dwell was important then because at higher RPM the dwell time points are to charge the coil was not enough to fully charge the induction coil That meant less voltage spark at higher RPM BAD There was etween dwell time at high RPM how much voltage you needed for high RPM spark how much voltage you could actually push thru a point thout burning it up and then what would happen at low rpm long dwell times when all that voltage was just heating up the coils newer CDI systems this term is near meaningless for several reasons Solid state transistors control the discharge pulses electronically with agar instantaneous timing in the nanoseconds So the dwell times can be finely controlled to achieve the best coil output Transistors can handle ound Imilliseond Their coil pulse voltage rise time to the plug is VERY fast at around 6 microseconds So charge discharge times are not huge factor unless racing Newer racing ignitions like MSD are NOT producing bigger sparks with long durations but in fact getting more more
116. r pulse goes nowhere This is not exactly what s happenning but close DON T GROUND THE WHITE WIRES When this happens the electronics in the Rectifier are handling the excess power and things get hot That s why it has heat fins on it file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 12 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ e WHAT DO I BELIEVE o Hey since I wrote this I get editorial license gt gt I personally believe most everyone s charging problems stem from either a bad battery low oil or MOST IMPORTANTLY bad connections on the bike ANY bad connection on the bike induce voltage drops acroos the charging circuit that overheat every component in it It will melt the WHITE 3 wire stator connector VERY TYPICAL and ultimately overheat the STATOR and Rectifier bad battery will overtax the charging circuit and melt it Common Scenarios e Bad connections in the charging system wiring causes a voltage drop across the wiring This in turn causes an increase in current draw from the generator The extra power going to bad connection is converted to heat The heat produced in either the stator or rectifier causes a failure You might see the signs of melted plugs and wires or heat deformation on stator or rectifier bodies The battery itself is causing the heavy current draw mentioned above This could be a bad battery or a drained battery that you are charging with the motorcycle ch
117. re is no stray ground in the wiring Put BLACK test lead on ground Pull RED WHITE BLACK wires off whole 4 prong plug from TCI Put RED test lead each wire end You should not see GROUND If you do suspect a short in the wiring somewhere to the frame or engine PROBLEM IS this may be happening with the vibration of the engine This would be very hard to see Because of the shared ground you can t run the bike even on one cylinder and check this top8 6 SWAPPING PICKUPS suspect one is bad You have 2 pickups You can use the good one to test your Bad One theory Simple NOTE DON T SCREW THIS UP xes file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 24 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ If you keep a spark wire connected and start the bike with the pickups swapped the bike WILL misfire BADLY Pull BOTH spark plugs off Insert screw into inop plug wire amp position near ground Swap the pickup sensor wires in TCI 4 prong plug Plug White wire onto Red pin and visa versa Red wire onto White pin Crank engine If the bad plug fires and good one doesn t then suspect the pickup OR COIL is bad Test Swap coil now and you ll know for sure top8 7 TEST FIRING a CDI or TCI Obviously if you can test fire the ignition module it narrows your troubleshooting quickly Anotherwords how can you trick the ignitor into thinking the pickup sensor has pulsed and or get it to fire a plu
118. rick of course if how to trigger the transistor switch The pmmon types of sensor systems that have evolved are magnetic Hall effect optical and for trivia rposes only ECKO In order of today s usage Used in Modern Autos Hall Effect Pickups Most Commonl COMPUTER OR n DISTRIBUTOR X IGNITION POWER MODULE 1 2 p SIGNAL GROUND NS 7 NV HALL CHIP ASSEMBLY SOLID METAL VANE SLOT BETWEEN VANES file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 11 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview MAGNET INTERRUPTER BLADE 1 OF 3 HALL SWITCH Ic To ignition coil From With transverse magnetic field meter reads a potential difference Direction of electron flow is is the most widely used type of ignition sensor The Hall effect named after the American physicist dwin Herbert Hall 1855 1938 involves the generation of an electric potential perpendicular to both an electric current flowing along a conducting material and an external me field applied at right rrent is passed though a silicon wafer When a exposed to a magnetic field this disrupts the and distributes more potential on one side of the wafer This can be measured conditioned and plified to trigger the ignition module Hall Effect sensors are extremely accurate they produce a itching it on The easy way to identify a Hall system is the fact that it mus
119. rk e 2 Trouble shooting Overview o 7 1 Symptoms o 11 1 Common Coil Spark o 2 1 Common sense approach o 7 2 What is TCI o 11 2 Vision Wasted Spark 2 2 What ARE the symptoms a 7 21 TCL is not CDI m 11 21 Symptom o 2 3 Quick Checklist m 7 22 TCI vs CDI m 11 22 How It Works o 2 4 Troubleshooting Chart m 7 23 How it works e 12 TCI Power On Tests e 3 First Things to Check o 7 3 How Coil spark works o 12 1 Test at SparkPlug o 34 Fuses o 74 How TCI works to fire coil o 122 Test at TCI o 3 15 Replacing Fuse Box o 7 5 Good news about TCI e 13 COILS o 3 2 Connections o 7 6 Bad News about TCI o 13 1 Symptoms o 3 25 Cleaning connectors o 7 7 Replacement cost of TCI o 13 2 Spark Test o 3 3 Battery o 7 8 What s inside and goes bad o 13 3 Ohm Test m 3 31 Battery Voltage test o 7 9 How To Tell TCI Module bad o 13 4 Swap coil test m 3 32 Battery Charging Circuit e 8 Pickup Sensors o 13 5 Plug Wire Check Test o 8 1 Tach Importance e 14 Ignition Cares o 3 4 Moisture o 8 2Symptoms o 14 1 Ignition Burnout o 3 5 Spark Plugs o 8 3 Sensor ohm test o 14 2 Coil Care e 4 Side Stand Relay m 8 31 Bad news about this test o 4 1 Symptoms o 8 4 TCI pin to sensor check APPENDIXzz 4 2 How it works o 8 5 Pickup Crosstalk Short 4 3 Disconnecting 851 Crosstalk check e Al TCI Pin Plug Diagram e 5 Engine Stop Switch 8 52 Short check e A2 Spark Test e 6 Rev Limiter Tachometer o 8 6 Swap Pickup Test p Test e A3 Multi meter Use o 6l Symptoms mptoms o 8 7 TCI
120. scharge ignition duction ignition agttering design votage rise time ignition well ignition advance ignition vacuum advance ignition detonation ame ignition hall effect ignition Just throwing some names out here INNO ORDER 1 Accell Intelligent Ign System Iss Lucas Rita amp W Ignitions y www mwignitions com Dynatek file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 18 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Kettering Automobile Lighting and Battery Charging System UNITED STATES PATENT OFFICE CHARLES KETTERING OF DAYTON OHIO ASSIGNOR TO THE DAYTON ENGINEERING LABORATORIES CO A CORPORATION OF OHIO ENGINE STARTING LIGHTING AND IGNITION SYSTEM 1 171 055 Specification of Letters Patent Application fled April 17 1911 Patented Feb 8 1916 Serial No 621 512 What is claimed is as follows In a device of the character described the combination with an engine of a storage battery electrienl power transmitting de vices interposed hetween the engine and battery and having dual characteristics to translate the electric power of the battery into mechanical power to start the engine and to translate the mechanical power of the running engine into electric current for Storage back into the common battery two sets of gearing connecting the said electric devices and said engine set for crank ing the engine at high leverage and the sec set for driving
121. spray turn your AIR DUST OFF spray can upside down its the same thing They will selectively chill each component till they can find the one that s breaking down with heat I ll bet many CDI modules that quit after start will work OK if you chill them down top7 7 THE HARSH TRUTH ABOUT BROKEN TCI CDI MODULES You Cannot Prove A TCI CDI is Good You can only prove that its BAD file El WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 19 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ With the exception of newer automobiles and high end fuel injected marine motors manufacturers make NO test bed module you can plug a CDI into which will test if it s good Worse most retail parts shops will sell you electronic parts as is and you own them when you walk out the door whether it turns out later you need them or not A repair shop has the luxury of having some spares laying around So they plug one in and see if it works You can t aford this trial and error method because Older CDI modules are pricey they got you and they know it Not just Yamaha or because you have a VISION Don t take it personally Most CDI modules cost around 300 400 The Yamaha TCI ignitor module costs 500 retail as of 2001 at least you can get one To soften the blow and REALLY to be safer outboard makers are now using separate CDI modules and coils for each cylinder So when one goes bad it doesn t kill the whole engine and each CD
122. stration and grief Another tip If you don t have an impact driver you can simulate one using a screw driver and a hammer Insert the tip of the screw driver into the screw head firmly grasp the screw driver handle and preload the screw in the desired direction of screw rotation then hit the head of the screw driver with a stout hammer blow This technique can be used for either direction of screw rotation Another tip damaged screw head bolt head or nut can sometimes be loosened by using a sharply pointed punch and hammer to rotate it in the desired direction It s time by QBS file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 15 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ It s time to reattach your starter clutch Get a Haynes manual Remove your stator rotor flywheel Remove the three allen screws that attach the SC to the back of the rotor Inspect the clutch rollers for flat spots and replace all damaged rollers Inspect the clutch housing for cracks in the roller area Replace or repair weld cracks housing as necessary Reassemble and reinstall SC When attaching SC to back of rotor use new allen screws that protrude 2 or 3 threads beyond the inside surface of the rotor Use Loc Tite on these screws and between the very clean oil free mating surfaces of the SC and rotor After the screws are tightened pean their protruding threads Reinstall the rotor SC assembly If the future ever requires removal of the S
123. t be externally powered So ere s going to be that extra wire Magnetic Pickups Most common in everything other than Auto file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 12 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview is is very popular and still used for many applications today because its a rugged durable design In dition the sensor is not powered like in Hall Effect so it can be used self powered magneto ignition pplications A coil sensor is used to detect the flux a magnet produces when it passes close by the ensor This magnetic rotor is called a Reluctor I betch ya didn t know that one The problem with tor This is a bigger problem with many cylinder engines and or high RPM applications Also you may member magnets tend to loose their strength with vibration and heat Also reluctors are stronger magnets you can definitely feel the pull if you get a screwdriver close which tends to magnify things Optical An infrared sensor triggers when a rotor blade blocks the light path Although accurate the sensor is sensitive to dirt and dust This is not used much but is very common in aftermarket ignition kits because its easy to adapt to almost any application SHUTTER ECKO Eddy Current Killed Oscillator systems were used by Lucas yeah the British Dark Lord It involves 2 coil sensor that has current flowing The sensor detects the current disruption cause by
124. t the side of the coil plugs or convert to EMF The goal is to get a good strong spark with good duration and one that jumps a good spark gap Points are a mechanical switch limited by how much current you can pump through them without burning them up So in the ignitions points limit the amount of power you can put into the coil Points are limited to about 250volts and 5 amps Coils can handle up to about 7 amps and transistor switches about 10 20 amps By the way the math for coil output is e L di dt which is voltage coil inductance times the rate of change of primary current as the stored coil current discharges MORE COMPLICATED COIL FOOD FOR THOUGHT It gets more con DENSER than you thought To really get technical a coil is really just an iron core transformer a step up transformer This concept becomes more important when we talk about CDI But for now we ll talk about a transformer we ve powered up with 12volt DC That sounds reasonable except that a transformer only works with AC current What I m so confused Yeah me too The points are opening and closing this electric flow thru the coil back forth at this really high rate Hmmmmm that sounds a lot like AC current See the points have actually created this psuedo sort of AC current The whole system resonates at some frequency That s why you hear car ignitions on the radio The circuit resonates at some tuned frequency that any engine at some RPM can pr
125. tely no particular order although I ll start with my dad who did measure all the component values of a TCI for us Bill Draper Yamaha Vision Riders Group You crazy guys Skip Johnson Dale Harris Ron Ghetti Jeff Swan QBS Lucky Aaron Berg David Denowh Dick Stelter Brian Fosh John Newton Uwe Werner Ulrik Moe Noe rgaard Steven Ware Les Rowe Ric Wade Jouko Kuisma Glen Scadden Dennis Myers Jim Gardner Anthony Apex Racing Kriss from poland George McQueen Roadrunner Bob R Jens Eckartsberg Fransisco Romo Garret Spears George Young Electrex MSD Ignitions and everyone else I forgot THANKS top 4 B3 gt REVISIONS amp CORRECTIONS e Rev 1 0 11 01 1999 Original Guide e Rev 1 1 07 01 2000 o Changed color Black on White for easier printing o Added Electrical amp Battery pages from Aaron Berg s XJ site e Rev 2 0 05 01 2001 o Added PDF files o Added Ignition Links Section o Added Ignition Discussion Page o Added TCI Repair Page o Added Stator Page e Rev 2 1 10 05 01 o Minor corrections from E Mail feedbacks e Rev 3 0 o Added many photos updated text to other pages e Rev 4 0 o Text update corrections as emailed to me and added larger graphics images since almost everyone is somewhat high speed now and I have more server space The original was limited to 5 megs file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 42 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Except
126. the same benefit of impending stator doom warning by doing a multi meter voltage check across the battery terminals before the first ride of the day at say 3500 RPM and keep a mental note of the reading for future comparison kind of like checking the oil Battery access is very easy I realize this a somewhat of a nuisance and won t reveal problems that may happen later in the day but stators don t seem to fail catastaphically Rather they sort of sneak away and before you know it they re gone makes sense to me by John Logan I think your procedure makes sense but it would be more than I could ever force myself to do routinely For the 83 a voltmeter in the dash is cheap and easy Some cost well below 20 For the 82 I d recommend the LED type it s just a little button with a glowing bulb in it and should be easy to find a spot for You need a couple of inches of clear space below the mounting hole tors Cooling Stators Cooling by Mark Moreland Just found this site Read a few dozen messages but did not see a suggestion on stator cooling I was an REV member about 1990 I obtained several years newsletters One had a tech tip that suggested adding an oil spray orifice to the bolt in the oil gallery of the stator end of the crankshaft I recall the orifice was drilled at 040 dial and was counter bored larger to help break up a stream and make the oil sling outwards to the stator Does anybody recall this Red stator cooling by C
127. tip of the electrode will appear slightly off white light beige There won t be any heat disfiguring of the electrode and no carbon buildup or soot Spark plug conditions A brown tan or grey firing end is indicative of White deposits have accumulated from excessive amounts of oil in the correct engine running conditions and the selection of the appropriate combustion chamber or through the use of low quality oil Remove heat rating plug deposits or a hot spot may form Black sooty deposits indicate an over rich fuel air mixture or a malfunc Wet oily carbon deposits form an electrical leakage path along the tioning ignition system If no improvement is obtained try one grade insulator nose resulting in a misfire The cause may be a badly wom hotter plug engine or a malfunctioning ignition system file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 9 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview AUN A A wom spark plug not only wastes fuel but also overloads the whole ignition timing or a malfunctioning cooling system If correction does not ignition system because the increased gap requires higher voltage to prove effective try a colder grade plug initiate the spark This condition can also affect air pollution WAIT A MINUTE How important can timing advance be My lawn mower doesn t have it or my small magneto outboard weed wacker etc Well your right And I don t know exact
128. use ignition symptoms for carb problems again check for spark o Bad connections voltage dropout and fuses can produce all the same symptoms of bad TCI Pickups o Dude Is Your Battery Good file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 4 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ top2 2 WHAT ARE THE SYMPTOMS Exactly WHAT IS GOING ON Take your time and write it down Try to pin down your symptoms Is just ONE cylinder misfiring Which one It makes a difference What is the Tach doing during the problem since the TCI drives the tach too What conditions make it happen worse after getting hot been running awhile bumps etc top2 3 Quick Check List In Priority Order JaFues E i TCI Power On Tet b Connections j TCI module Power Voltage Checks 1 Voltage Dropouts TCI disassembly inspection Battery L Sensor Ohm Check Swap Test 1 e Spark Plugs and Wires m Coils Ohm Check Swap Test 1 f Side Stand Relay g Engine Stop Switch h Rev Limiter Wire top 2 4 The Matrix Symptoms Possible Problem Solution parkplug fouled or Plug Wire bad Rev Limiter gt cut Yellow Black wire at TCI 6 prong plug Front Pickup gt check swap Front coil gt check swap CI gt check swap Front Cyl ONLY misfire file El _WebPages_Posted JetA
129. uses a Back Electro Motive Force current in the primary wire of about 200 300volts THIS IS IMPORTANT Most think the coil converts 12v to 30 000 volts Not exactly See this back EMF voltage of 300volts is now applied to both windings When the coil collapses this rapidly changing magnetic field is also transferred to the Secondary windings as current remember the discussion above about magnetism a changing magnetic field passing by a coil creates electric current The Secondary winding is 100 times longer so produces a voltage about 100 times more than the Primary during collapse Lets do the math The Primary Low Tension wire is about 300v during the Back EMF spike So the Secondary High Tension wire is 100 x 300 30 000 volts This high voltage is going somewhere somehow to ground The faster the power cutoff is in the primary the faster the collapse and the faster more powerful that spark is So when the points open instantly cutting off power to the coil 30 000 volts goes to ground from the secondary winding via the spark plug If you ve understood some of this then you should be asking how does the primary winding collapse to ground if the points just opened its connection with ground BINGO To get the primary winding to collapse in the proper fashion we got to give it a way to get back to ground during the collapse INTRODUCING THE CONDENSER Ok quick review Due to magnetic flux properties researc
130. ut ultimately it was a new pickup that solved the problem It had ALL THE SAME SYMPTOMS OF A BAD CDI module top8 4 CHECK TCI PINS TO SENSOR Disconnect 4 Prong plug from TCI and check the male protruding pins on the module case Connect the black test lead to the frame ground Ignition ON and look for Black wire pin Ground file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 23 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Connected inside TCI to BLACK ground wire from 6 prong plug Red wire pin 1 2v 0 5v White wire pin 1 2v 0 5v Put RED test lead on black wire and look for 0 5 volts when RED wire plugged onto pin White wire disconnected WHITE wire plugged onto pin RED wire disconnected If you have good power at the TCI pin but not after going through the pickup something weird is going on Suspect a short in pickup or wiring possibly where it goes into crankcase etc You would have seen a break in the wire with the ohm test top8 5 PICKUP CROSSTALK SHORT symptoms Since the pickups share a common ground crosstalk or a short between the two sensors is a real possibility Crosstalk would result in one sensor triggering the wrong coil A short between the sensors could cause unpredictable symptoms top8 51 CROSSTALK CHECK This is unknown Without the schematic we re not sure how this works Sorry dudes top8 52 PICKUP SHORT CHECK You are looking to make sure the
131. v8rNew Vision IgnitionFAQ html 5 of 43 8 6 2005 7 13 08 AM Ignition FAQ Rear Cyl ONLY misfire Inop ach Works fine Rear Cyl ONLY misfire Inop ach Jumps around wildly or inop BOTH cyl die together bike won t run ach dies also goes zero BOTH cyl die together And starter won t work Both cylinders misfire Engine runs real erratic May run fine high RPM but not low or visa versa May not start or spark at all Worse when hot Ignition good till under load Ignition good some days not others parkplug fouled or Plug Wire bad Rear Coil gt check swap Grey wire Bad From TCI to coil TCl is triggering tach correctly sensor good Rear Pickup gt check swap Cl gt check swap Side Stand Relay gt Cut Black White wire at TCI 6 prong plug gt Check Swap Try Power On test Run switch bad gt Try Separate 12v wire and test Most likely TCI problem or bad connection to TCI Check connections and voltages CI gt power on tests Cl Inspection Bad Battery Connections Voltage drop somewhere Bad Connections Cl gt Open Inspect for obvious flaws moisture top 3 0 gt OBVIOUS THINGS TO CHECK top3 1 FUSE BOX The fuse box under the seat should be replaced Especially the 10amp ignition fuse It provides 12 power to the ignition module coils safety relays poor connection here can result in ALL of the ignition symptoms file E WebPages Posted J
132. vive being drained multiple times Deep cycle batteries have more reserve capacity but have less cranking amps for a given size A standard battery would have more total surface area on its plates when compared to a deep cycle battery of equal size This extra surface area provides more area for the chemical reaction to take place and therefore produce a higher output current The electrolyte in a deep cycle will be a slightly more concentrated sulfuric acid than a standard battery Links file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 18 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 AM Yamah Vision Stator FAQ charging systems for motorcycles year warranty Ask for Ritzo or Paul Their downloadable flow chart PDF or DOC format for diagnosing charging system faults is right ag Their stators I believe are made in England but they have a fully stocked location in California Except Images and where otherwise noted amp COPY 1999 David Leather Draper MailTo Jet_Av8r CSI COM Permission is granted for you to reprint or post this page in its entirety only with copyright notices and mailto links intact file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator Stator html 19 of 19 8 6 2005 7 13 35 file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator FlywheelRotor_500 JPG file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Stator FlywheelRotor_500 JPG8 6 2005 7 13 38 AM file El _WebPages_Posted J
133. voltage rise time The voltage rise time in conventional ignitions is about 100microseconds The result is spark durations from inductive coil systems between 1 2 milliseconds As we ll see CDI is a different animal Here the voltage rise time is a short 6 microseconds but the spark duration is shortened considerably also The quick charge time is an advantage in high RPM settings but the short spark length is a disadvantage for starting and other high rpm compression ratio fuel mix situations Because of this the longer duration of inductive discharge systems is sometimes preferred over CDI Distributor with dual points SPARK TIMING and COMBUSTION PROGRESSION Obviously the timing of the spark is crucial to getting the full horsepower capability from an engine So we need to talk about the desired timing of the spark why that changes and how that gets changed while an engine is running Most of us think when the spark plug fires the gas air mixture in the piston instantly explodes and that exploding pressure is what drives the piston down Well sort of Except if the gas really did ignite all at once we really would have an exploding engine pistons everywhere We have to slow down the process and take a millisecond by millisecond look at it file El _WebPages_Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDLhtml 5 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 Electronic Ignition Overview Typical Advance Curve Deg Advance 40 30
134. wires Check the wear and replace the distributor rotor if there is one Check the wear and replace the timing belt 1f there is one pere are no points to replace no dwell or timing to change the New Millennium high end car amp marine engines have neither a timing belt distributor plug wires etc You guessed it there ARE MOVING PARTS and NO ADJUSTMENTS It either WORKS or IT DOESN T they can do is change the spark plugs AND Y OU SHOULD file E WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision Ignition CDI html 15 of 18 8 6 2005 7 13 30 AM Electronic Ignition Overview Nw in fairness the truth is a dealer or very good shop WILL plug your high end machine into a 300 000 diagnostic computer which will whether all those sensors you don t know about are working correctly to produce max horsepower best gas mileage no knocking and can California exhaust so people can breath what little is left of their air and your catalytic converter doesn t have a Chernobyl pltdown And these things could be important Ignition Considerations common question is how much power do you need in an ignition system The more the better right Well not exactly Lately it seems the is always centered around high voltage 50 000 low resistance racing coils aftermarket ignitions MSD Accel etc What is really important 8011 aspects Rise time refers to the time needed for the coil voltage t
135. y com It is a T 220 footprint so the same size as the original The NTE2317 should also work The NTE2317 is slightly more expensive we re talking a couple dollars total here but is more readily available on the net It is a T 218 so is larger than the original and would require you to shoehorn it to the board somehow with heat sink http www nteinc com specs 2300to2399 NTE2317 html 1 WebPages Posted JetAv8rNew Vision TCIRebuild TCI Rebuild html 6 of 10 8 6 2005 7 13 39 AM Yamaha Vision TCI Rebuild Again the Virago is similar in vintage and electrical design so notice that the power semiconductors in a Virago ignitor are marked D1071 They have also been replaced successfully with the BU806 and ST9431 AII the components in the Vision TCI have been identified and are listed below The exception is the piggy back board on the printed circuit board called a Hybrid which has an IC mounted on it This is most likely the timing curve This can t be fixed and there s no obvious replacement Fixing the TCI This would be my recommended order of things till you get it working 1 Gain access to the PCB Printed Circuit Board Remove the top cover to the TCI held by 4 screws DO NOT TRY TO PRY IC BOARD OUT OF THE TCI CASE It is held in by one small Philip screw and MORE IMPORTANTLY is soldered to the plug pins molded into the side of the case To get the board out you have to desolder the pins or break them
136. y pass through the grommets work the wires in and out of the holes a bit to ensure the sealants coating the holes 6 Wait about ten minutes for the Yamabond to set up a bit 7 Smush the grommets back into the slots they belong in carefully place a NEW gasket onto the left side of engine case and re assemble 8 Wait 12 hrs if you can before refilling with oil to make sure the stuff sets up well NO LEAKS SO FAR IN DOING THIS TWICE THIS WAY AFTER 4 PREVIOUS ATTEMPTS TO SOLVE SAME LEAK Charge cures by bernard lajoie source a re wind from Rick s Stator west coast or Cycletronics use to be Willy s in Alabama east coast For reg rect replacement throw the yamaha part in trash go to salvage yard use either Honda or Kaw For Honda use cm 400 450 twin or cx 500 650twin only Wire in this order 3 yellows to stator one per leg red w white to battery pos small black wire to switched HOT this is the volt reg wire If not hooked up bike will over charge 16 19volts not a good thing Last hook green wire to battery ground Some Honda reg rect will have 2 red w wht 2 green just splice together red to red grn to grn For Kaw use late model kz zx 550 kz zx750 kz zx 1000 1100 these are the 2 valve motors zx GPZ or 600r ninja 4 valve wire in this order 3 yellows to stator one leg white w red to battery pos brown smallwire to switched This 15 reg rect wire black to battery ground IMPORTANT you will need the gang plug that plugs into

TCI & CDI Electronic Ignition / Stators & Charging Systems

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TCI &amp; CDI Electronic Ignition / Stators &amp; Charging Systems

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TCI & CDI Electronic Ignition / Stators & Charging Systems